Political Crossfire Forums

[pharaoh]

Psycho Sid wrote: Cap:

That wasn't so hard now, was it?

OK, so you would move. That's what you would do. Perhaps you're a person who values life over anything else. That's certainly your prerogative.

However, many others would not move. My guess is that the US would not allow that to happen to easily. They would defend Texas with all their might. They would ask for the help of other nations if needed. They would wage endless war against the Mexicans until Texas is restored to its owners.

Would you say that's a stretch? Or is it a perfectly logical prediction? Based on the history of this world, anyone would agree that my prediction is logical and sound. What would be impossible is for Americans and Texas to stop fighting and simply give Texas over to the Mexicans. That *never* happened in the history of mankind (unless under extreme circumstances, such as an overwhelming handicap). Every nation and people along the history line of this world have fought for their land. Heck, animals and insects never go down without a fight, no matter how big and strong the enemy is. A fly fights endlessly to untangle itself from a spider's web. A roach fights off the droves of ants overwhelming him. They never submit; never surrender. An ant farm teaches any invader a lesson they never forget. A hippo is one of the fiercest creatures when it comes to their territory. They never allow invaders (including humans) anywhere near their land. And just try to threaten the territory of the salt water crocodile (the mini-dragon). You're in for some pure, unadulterated horror. You'll be in worse shape if you invade their territory AND kill some of them. I read a news story about people killing a baby elephant cruelly. A while after that, the same village brought it some elephants from the same tribe as that killed baby, and the adult elephants detected the scent and went on a WILD rampage throughout the city, avenging their little loved one.

See Captain, what the Jews did to us Muslims in Palestine is the same thing. They invaded our land, killed our loved ones, tortured them, desecrated our holy land, all that even after we had tolerated them and allowed them to live among us for many decades or even centuries.

I don't know about you, but when someone does that to *me*, I never let that go. It is my duty as being with a *pulse* to not let that go, as I must reclaim my territory and avenge my loved ones.

We Muslims view Israel as an invader, nothing more, nothing less. 50 years after its establishment, the view is still the same. It will always be that way. They invaded our land and killed our loved ones. Would *you* let that go? Would YOU say, "ah what the hell? let's let them live here, let's let peace reign, enough killing"? Of course not. You would do everything in your power to kick this evil invader out of your land, no matter how much times passes. And I know that you might find it hard to agree with me on this particular situation (Muslims Vs. Israelis), fearing you might be rooting for even more killing, but the sad fact is that killing will happen, and the Jews started it by invading our land and insisting they have their own state amidst it. We are not a nation that loves to kill. We avoid killing as much as possible. Islam is a religion that promotes every form of peace. But if someone invades our land and kills our people, we're not interested in making peace with such an entity.

Cap'n queasy doesnt think about things in term of right or wrong. He takes everything from a religious prespective. He says that the bible says that Christians should help the jews reestablish themselves in Palestine. Thats just what he believes in. Surely if he just think about whats happening in Palestine he may realize that god doesnt support injustice and terrorism that the zionists have been commiting since 1947 and even before that date. That brings us to this question (since we are in a religion forum after all): Please enlighten me, a man like you who reads the bible (OT and NT ofcourse) what is god's real take on violence? I mean why does he commands the Jews to annihilate their enemies in Palestine, including their animals, and on the other hand he says in the NT to turn the other cheek and love your enemy?! And if you believe that god really advocats peace and tolerance and all that then why does he support the zionists who are causing all this injustice in Palestine for more than 50 years and still going strong at it? Is it because they are the "chosen people"? And if so isnt a bit intolerant to support one race of people even though they do injustice?
Please answer my questions. Thank you.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: He takes everything from a religious prespective. He says that the bible says that Christians should help the jews reestablish themselves in Palestine.

Actually, what I believe is that it is going to happen regardless of human action. Israel is the instrument by which Issa will bring the Millennial Kingdom.

The scriptures tell us this and they have not been wrong yet. The restoration of Israel in 1948 almost two thousand years after it was destroyed, a prophecy of Daniel fulfilled to the exact day, is powerful testimony to the truth of Scripture. To fight it is to fight against God. It is anti-Christ.


Quote: See Captain, what the Jews did to us Muslims in Palestine is the same thing. They invaded our land, killed our loved ones, tortured them, desecrated our holy land, all that even after we had tolerated them and allowed them to live among us for many decades or even centuries.
That's not exactly true the British mandated Israel for Israelites and Trans-Jordan for those who didn't want to live in Israel. Muslims seem to want the whole thing for themselves.

Actually my Texas ancestors lived in Texas when it was part of Mexico. And Mexico never really held Texas, the Comanche ruled it and exacted tribute from Mexico for over four hundred years. Mexico didn't want anything to do with actually settling Texas, the Texans did that at the cost of much more blood than was exacted by Mexico. In this Mexico is similar to the Palestinian's cause. They want it when it has been developed by others, but it was too much trouble before.


So as you can see, it is a completely different scenario than you guys envision if you happen to be aware of certain historical facts surrounding both areas.

If God was using Mexico as His instrument I would support that too.

Quote: 1 Why are the nations in an uproar

And the peoples devising a vain thing?

2 The kings of the earth take their stand

And the rulers take counsel together

Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying,

3 "Let us tear their fetters apart

And cast away their cords from us!"

4 He who sits in the heavens laughs,

The Lord scoffs at them.

5 Then He will speak to them in His anger

And terrify them in His fury, saying,

6 "But as for Me, I have installed My King

Upon Zion, My holy mountain."

7 "I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD:

He said to Me, `You are My Son,

Today I have begotten You.

8 `Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance,

And the very ends of the earth as Your possession.

9 `You shall break them with a rod of iron,

You shall shatter them like earthenware.' "

10 Now therefore, O kings, show discernment;

Take warning, O judges of the earth.

11 Worship the LORD with reverence

And rejoice with trembling.

12 Do homage to the Son, that He not become angry, and you perish in the way,

For His wrath may soon be kindled.

How blessed are all who take refuge in Him!


One similarity I find between Jews and Muslims they both take the word of mistaken commentaries on scripture over scripture. A quick look at history shows what this brings those who ignore God for man's ways.

So I supplied some for you to examine.

[Saracen]

Whoa there, queasy.

I don't see how Christians support the so-called "Enemies of Christ" these days. Tell me about it. I'd like to know more...

[Patience]

cap'n queasy wrote: Why is Islam so totally against the State of Israel?

Muslims can live there too, why not just treat it like any other nation in the area?

Because the Jews massacred the Palestinians since announcing the state of Israel! The jews want to eliminate the palestinians to fulfill the biblical prophecies. They dont want the pals to live among them.

And becasue israelis took the pals' lands, demolished their houses, tortured and killed them! Who can bear such regime?!

When jews were living among Muslims in Muslims' countries, they were living in peace.

While the jews were being killed in the holocaust they were ministers, buisnessmen, and movie stars in Egypt! Omar Sharif was a jew before he embrace islam to marry a muslim actress.

The State of Israel is based on injustice, racism and hatred, how can we accept that :!?: :!: :!:

[Robin Hood]

Quote: Because the Jews massacred the Palestinians since announcing the state of Israel! The jews want to eliminate the palestinians to fulfill the biblical prophecies. They dont want the pals to live among them.

Where do you get your information from? Maybe you'd like to offer some evidence for any of those claims. After all there are Muslim Arab citizens of Israel, they have full voting rights, representation in the Knesset (Israeli Parliament) and some Israeli Muslims are very patriotic and have even been war heroes.

Quote: When jews were living among Muslims in Muslims' countries, they were living in peace.

Sometimes, but often they lived as second class citizens which Arab Muslim citizens of Israel are not.
Quote:
While the jews were being killed in the holocaust they were ministers, buisnessmen, and movie stars in Egypt! Omar Sharif was a jew before he embrace islam to marry a muslim actress.

Egypt has a long history of tolerance, and a wonderful history of brilliance.; but it has suffered some societal decline unfortunately. A man like this shouldn't be able to call himself Egyptian or Muslim but he gets considerable support at the ballot box.

Mohamed Akef - the head of the Muslim Brotherhood, the main opposition force in Egypt's parliament

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/95F3E64C-5A43-4B89-B312-FE89142ECA15.htm

Quote: The State of Israel is based on injustice, racism and hatred, how can we accept that

The State of Israel has engaged in all of those, as have all their neighbours - some to a far larger extent. This does not excuse Israel, but it is also not the same as being founded on those things; though it is unfortunately founded on socialist principles, which is almost as bad.

[thefranzkafkafront]

cap'n queasy wrote: Why is Islam so totally against the State of Israel?

Muslims can live there too, why not just treat it like any other nation in the area?

Well Israel was orginally founded as a jewish state, and im sure you can see why that would piss most arabs off.

But i do agree the way forward is not a seperate palestinian israeli state, but a union much like that of scotland and england.

[Sycho Sid]

Cap:

"The restoration of Israel in 1948 almost two thousand years after it was destroyed, a prophecy of Daniel fulfilled to the exact day"

Can you quote a verse?

"To fight it is to fight against God. It is anti-Christ. "

Well, seeing how many massacres and murderes were committed by the Israelis, I'd say that your god and christ stand for some pretty undesirable principles. I had no idea God was ok with the Jenin and Deer Yaseen massacres. Problem is, Jesus taught you to turn the other cheek, and now you're claiming he supports Israeli criminals who killed many innocent people in the Bahr Al-Baqar and Kafar Qassim massacres.

"That's not exactly true the British mandated Israel for Israelites and Trans-Jordan for those who didn't want to live in Israel. Muslims seem to want the whole thing for themselves. "

That's the equivalent of saying: "Hey, although we Muslims invaded North Dakota and gave it to the Russians, we gave those who didn't want to stay there the option to move to Canada. Mighty gracious of us. OK Russians, ND is all yours. Anyone who resists this is an evil terrorist. Man, those American seem to want everything for themselves! How greedy!"

"So as you can see, it is a completely different scenario than you guys envision if you happen to be aware of certain historical facts surrounding both areas."

I really have no idea what the little history lecture had to do with anything. I was asking you a simple question regardless of anything else and you STILL have not answered it. Nevermind, I think you sort of agree with me that it is everyone's duty to fight Israel. Your refusal to answer the question implies that.