Political Crossfire Forums

callous · Joined: 10 Jul 2005 Posts: 15288 Location: In The Open

Why is it so difficult for progressive minded people to come out aggressively and loudly in the defense of homosexuals? It seems like the only people in the news today are either social conservatives flat ignoring civil liberties, as they usually do, or pundits meekly going about the business of exploiting anything attention grabbing, regardless of whether it's for the good of the American people or not. There is no more debate about whether these people are morally or genetically solid; as if there ever was. WHERE ARE THE INTELLIGENT PEOPLE? I am a born and bred American straight male, and I make a consistent habit of verbally ripping apart anyone who slags gays in any way shape or form. To me the "F" word is just as bad as the "N" word. I am ASHAMED of anybody who can't find the gumption within their hearts to defend these people. This is 1961 all over again. And personally I don't see the same quality of American nowadays as there was marching among the African Americans in protest back then.

STEP UP.

John Galt · Joined: 04 May 2004 Posts: 20598 Location: Minnesota

I cannot see the parallels thatyou see. One is behavior-- the other is the way someone looks. While true, both are natural occurances they are very different. This is not "1961 all over again." For one thing, the gay population is somewhere around 5% of the populous, give or take, while african americans made up about a fourth. Moreoever, no one is denying these people their constitutionally protected rights and there isn't maurading groups of individuals lynching them. There have been some unfourtunate incidents -- Matthew Sheppard of course comes to mind -- but while they should not be forgotten it is good to be reminded that these are isolated incidents and one cannot hold the other 94.999999999% of the population, the heterosexuals, all accountable for the actions of the 0.00000001% of them.

Ever hear of Stocism? Roman ideal of a man who was devot and whatnot. He also had sex only for procreation. A homosexual was viewed as a man who craved sex too much, a moral failing. I wouldn't say the debate is "over" and it will never be. I foronefind nothing morally wrong with homosexuality; its who they are and they can do as they please, but I willnot castjudgement against others whofind it morally corruptable as they can think as they please as well.

callous · Joined: 10 Jul 2005 Posts: 15288 Location: In The Open

Yes obviously hate crimes against homosexuals have thankfully not been any fraction of those committed against African Americans. But I was born intolerant of intolerance, which happens to be my definition of a true American. The general attitude as i perceive it in American culture is that homosexuality is something still to brush under the carpet regardless of so called "advances" in society acceptance watermarked by TV shows, equality movements etc. This country has been through this before. You'd think we would learn how to adapt.

Melchior · Joined: 02 Oct 2004 Posts: 9224 Location: Palm Beach

John Galt wrote: For one thing, the gay population is somewhere around 5% of the populous, give or take

Oh, that is just sooooooooooooooo wrong! :rotf:

John Galt · Joined: 04 May 2004 Posts: 20598 Location: Minnesota

Melchior wrote: John Galt wrote: For one thing, the gay population is somewhere around 5% of the populous, give or take

Oh, that is just sooooooooooooooo wrong! :rotf:

Why? Because a few decades agosomeone threw out the unsubstantiated 10% number? It has never been shown to be correct, and 5% is high from actual studies that I've seen on the subject. I've seen numbers around 2-3%. I'll try to find the scientific studies; if you can find a scientific study to state otherwise (ie,10%) I'm all ears. But I bet my bottom dollar you can't.

Melchior · Joined: 02 Oct 2004 Posts: 9224 Location: Palm Beach

I don't care if Albert Einstein did the study, it's just plain wrong! That's like trying to use mathematics to prove the sky is green, I can see the sky clearly and it's not green. :lol:

Honestly, even if they are a super minority, does it matter?

John Galt · Joined: 04 May 2004 Posts: 20598 Location: Minnesota

callous wrote: Yes obviously hate crimes against homosexuals have thankfully not been any fraction of those committed against African Americans. But I was born intolerant of intolerance, which happens to be my definition of a true American. The general attitude as i perceive it in American culture is that homosexuality is something still to brush under the carpet regardless of so called "advances" in society acceptance watermarked by TV shows, equality movements etc. This country has been through this before. You'd think we would learn how to adapt.

No-- that is not a true American. That's not a liberal stance at all. That is illiberal and closeminded and wrong. If you are going to be tolerant you have to be tolerant of intolerance. Otherwise you "becomewhat you hate" and all that jazz.

I am intolerant of murderers. Are you intolerant of me because of my intolerance for criminals? I doubt it. Youare selectivly tolerant and intolerant. If you want to preach tolerance you must be tolerant for all people. I don't preach tolerance -- but I do say that every man in this country deserves their natural rights respected. I go that far, but I am intolerant of those who abridge them. Calling someone what you called the "F" word -- which isn't the "F" word -- is not abridging their rights. It may becreul and callous but so is life all around. Attacking them is abridging their rights. Attacking them because of who they are may be cruel and callous but a "hate crime" is exaclty the same as any other, normal, shall we say "love crime" (oh wait, they don't exist, like "hate crimes"). Both abridge someone's rights equally andshould have equal weight placed upon the person who committed them. Anything else would do a disservice to justice.

John Galt · Joined: 04 May 2004 Posts: 20598 Location: Minnesota

Melchior wrote: I don't care if Albert Einstein did the study, it's just plain wrong! That's like trying to use mathematics to prove the sky is green, I can see the sky clearly and it's not green. :lol:

Honestly, even if they are a super minority, does it matter?

Well you're the one who highlighted it, so should I not ask you the same question? I was merely contrasting homosexuals to blacks, pointing out that it is not "1961 all over again."

As for you saying it's "just plain wrong," why? Because you think it is? You say it is obviously wrong, but instead of using an argument to bolster your claim you use a fallacy. I'm sorry but being an armchair scientist does not help anyone here.

Like I said I will lookfor thestudies I've seen. Unfountuently it may be hard as I currently do not have access to scientific journals online. :(

Melchior · Joined: 02 Oct 2004 Posts: 9224 Location: Palm Beach

Hey, all I'm saying is studies like these are not perfect.

I know what I see when I'm out in the city, and it's definitely not a 5% population of homosexuals...

callous · Joined: 10 Jul 2005 Posts: 15288 Location: In The Open

Ah so easily we fall into the child like vicious circles of defining intolerance rather than focusing on what the post is actually about, whether its morally acceptable to look the other way while fundamentalists hold sway over social developement. You know exactly what i meant when i said I was intolerant of intolerance. I am intolerant of social intolerance. My own convictions were laid out in the initial post. They are cut and dried. If one must present an arguement for moral vagueness at least they can do it while preserving some of ones own ability to follow simple insinuations ! ;)

ieatfood · Joined: 28 Mar 2005 Posts: 6289

Actually, since the average gay person actually has a higher income than the average black person, I'd say that your comparison to the civil rights movement is f@ggoty.

Gays are not drinking out of different water fountains, going to different bathrooms, or sitting in the back of the bus. To compare their plight to the plight of blacks during the civil rights movement is absurd. You really need a reality check.

Gays have the same rights as everyone else. People need to calm down.

John Galt · Joined: 04 May 2004 Posts: 20598 Location: Minnesota

Melchior wrote: Hey, all I'm saying is studies like these are not perfect.

I know what I see when I'm out in the city, and it's definitely not a 5% population of homosexuals...

You live in Palm Beach.

Melchior · Joined: 02 Oct 2004 Posts: 9224 Location: Palm Beach

John Galt wrote: Melchior wrote: Hey, all I'm saying is studies like these are not perfect.

I know what I see when I'm out in the city, and it's definitely not a 5% population of homosexuals...

You live in Palm Beach.

Good point. :lol:

Valdimar · Joined: 12 Dec 2004 Posts: 711 Location: San Francisco

Okay.. being down the road, back again, and down it again as to how I feel about being gay and my place in this society, I have come to the conclusion that I am rather content.

f**k the issue of gay marriage. It will take time for society to evolve state to state as to how they will come to terms to accepting it. Until then, there are other legal hurdles to hop over if you want all the same benefits as marriage. If it is something I want, i will get it. Marriage to me is about love and commitment, not a government approved action.

Homosexuality is NOT illegal. There are no seperate laws for us nor are we assigned to a different part of the bus. Again, this type of lifestyle is slowly becoming accepted to the general populous. It's not going to happen overnight. Hell, I live *THE GAYEST* part of the United States and I still don't find it necessary to carry a flag about my sexuality. Who in the f**k cares what I do with my genitals. I contribute to society and abide by the laws. My personal life is noone's business.

Noone needs to step up.. the gay community needs to step down and pretend for once that they can be a part of a normal, productive society without always trying to flog the goddamned Pity Card on every possible issue.

Wallie_x · Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 538 Location: Central California

callous wrote:
I am ASHAMED of anybody who can't find the gumption within their hearts to defend these people.

That is a very narrow minded point of view. The right to voice dissent is one of the basic premises of democracy.

Wallie_x · Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 538 Location: Central California

callous wrote:
I am ASHAMED of anybody who can't find the gumption within their hearts to defend these people.

That is a very narrow minded point of view. The right to voice dissent is one of the basic premises of democracy.

ieatfood · Joined: 28 Mar 2005 Posts: 6289

Wallie_x wrote: callous wrote:
I am ASHAMED of anybody who can't find the gumption within their hearts to defend these people.

That is a very narrow minded point of view. The right to voice dissent is one of the basic premises of democracy.

Gays don't need defending--no one is attacking them.

What does this have to do with the right of dissent? That seems to be the generic liberal answer to every issue.

Melchior · Joined: 02 Oct 2004 Posts: 9224 Location: Palm Beach

Wow, here is a first. :)

The custom title explains it...

Valdimar wrote: Okay.. being down the road, back again, and down it again as to how I feel about being gay and my place in this society, I have come to the conclusion that I am rather content.

I am not, and I suspect you are due to party loyalty.

Valdimar wrote: f**k the issue of gay marriage. It will take time for society to evolve state to state as to how they will come to terms to accepting it. Until then, there are other legal hurdles to hop over if you want all the same benefits as marriage. If it is something I want, i will get it. Marriage to me is about love and commitment, not a government approved action.

I want government out of marriage also. But government involvement or not, banning gay marriage is an insult to our right to unlimited contract, I will not stand for it.

Valdimar wrote: Homosexuality is NOT illegal. There are no seperate laws for us nor are we assigned to a different part of the bus. Again, this type of lifestyle is slowly becoming accepted to the general populous. It's not going to happen overnight. Hell, I live *THE GAYEST* part of the United States and I still don't find it necessary to carry a flag about my sexuality. Who in the f**k cares what I do with my genitals. I contribute to society and abide by the laws. My personal life is noone's business.

There are sodomy laws on the books, and people want them enforced. At every turn the religious right is ready to attack the natural rights of homosexuals. The American Taliban would not be hesitant to throw us in concentration camps. And the Religious Right has a huge influence on the GOP. And the GOP is currently in power...

Valdimar wrote: Noone needs to step up.. the gay community needs to step down and pretend for once that they can be a part of a normal, productive society without always trying to flog the goddamned Pity Card on every possible issue.

Do you really think the gay community is out of line? Granted they keep going to the supreme court, but the homosexuals in this country are not as fervent as heterosexists make them out to be.

minyard · Joined: 01 May 2004 Posts: 13 Location: Atlanta GA

[quote="Melchior"]

I want government out of marriage also. But government involvement or not, banning gay marriage is an insult to our right to unlimited contract, I will not stand for it.
[/quote]

I searched google:

Results 1 - 2 of 2 for "right to unlimited contract"

And that you may feel insulted truly your problem and yours alone. There are same-sex weddings all the time. Go have as many as you want. Why do you need Uncle Sam to be your best man? Didn't you just say you "want government out of marriage also"?

patrickt · Joined: 07 Jul 2004 Posts: 1665 Location: Oaxaca, Mexico

I think the original question was why is the support for gays from the left so "lackluster." Does everyone remember the spirited oppostion to the Defense of Marriage Act in 1996? I don't. It was passed and signed without a lot of attention. When President Clinton wanted to permit gays to serve in the miltary I remembered my time in the service. There were gays in our outfits and no one really seemed to care much. But, as soon as the usual suspects raised a stink the issue was dropped.

I have argued with gay friends that voting their sexual orientation is a waste of time because neither the Democrats nor the Republicans will address that issue in a reasonable manner. They won't even have an honest debate.

Okay, so the original posters comparison of gays and blacks isn't valid. Okay, so the percentage of the population that's gay isn't known exactly. The fact remains that my friends who are gay are harmed by the actions of the government and it isn't right.