Political Crossfire Forums

[John]

Duchifas wrote: No, we can't agree on this, because (as I bolded in your post) you are generalizing, and quite incorrectly so. Horses don't consume non-kosher animals. Neither do camels. They certainly don't do it in a worse fashion than cows or sheep. So your reasons don't even come close to being applicable.

So no, we absolutely cannot agree on this because it is blatantly wrong.

Is there a fish on the planet that doesn't eat shrimp? Chickens eat cockroaches, heck they eat their own crap....that isn’t kosher.

Can we not agree that eating kosher foods is a ceremonial way of keeping oneself sacred before the Lord?

[John]

Quote: Dude. That's an answer, but not to your question. The answer to your question would tell me why eating the meat of a cow, or a deer, or a gazelle does not make me ritually defiled, while eating the meat of a hare or a camel does. Why eating some grasshopers does not defile, while eating others does. Why eating tuna fish is not defiling, while eating swordfish is.

Try to answer that question.

Same reason why the Tabernacle had to be built a certain way out of certain material. Because it's a ceremonial law that represents truths of Messiah.

Like the Red Heifer for example…




Quote:

The Red Heifer (Parah Adumah)


[Note: According to Jewish tradition, these instructions were initially given to Moses in the second year of the Exodus, on Nisan 1, the day the mishkan (tabernacle) was first erected, but appear at this point in the narrative because of the need to purify the people after Miriam's death.]

Moses is given the unusual ritual law (chukat hatorah) of the Red Heifer (parah adumah), whose ashes purify those contaminated by contact with death. This ritual is considered chok within the Jewish tradition, since it makes no rational sense. In fact, the Talmud states that of all the taryag mitzvot (613 commandments), this is the only one that King Solomon could not fathom, since this sacrifice is the most paradoxical of all the sacrifices found in the Torah. However, as we will see, the symbolism of the parah adumah is a clear foreshadowing of the sacrifice of the Mashiach Yeshua to deliver us from death.

The parah adumah had to be a perfect specimen that was completely red, “without blemish, in which there is no defect.” The rabbis interpreted “without blemish” as referring to the color, that is, without having so much as a single white or black hair. This is the only sacrifice in the Torah where the color of the animal is explicitly required. Moreover, the parah adumah was never to have had a yoke upon it, meaning that it must never have been used for any profane purposes.

Unlike all other sacrifices offered at the mizbeach (altar at the Mishkan), the parah adumah was taken outside the camp and there slaughtered before the priest, who then took some of its blood and sprinkled it seven times before the Mishkan (thereby designating it as a purification offering). [During the Second Temple period, the High Priest performed this ceremony facing the Temple while atop the Mount of Olives.] Then the red heifer would be burned in its entirety: its hide, flesh, blood, and even dung were to be burned (unlike other Levitical offerings). Unlike other offerings, all the blood of the sacrifice was to be burned in the fire.

Hyssop, scarlet yarn, and a cedar stick would then be thrown upon the burning parah adumah (interestingly, these same items were used to cleanse from sin or tzara’at (skin disease). In other words, the blood was assimilated into the ashes of the sacrifice, which were then gathered and mixed with water to create the “water of separation” (mei niddah) for the Israelite community. Note that the word “separation” (niddah) refers to menstrual impurity and harkens to Zechariah 13:1: “On that day there shall be a fountain opened for the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and from niddah.”

Anyone (or anything) that came into contact with a corpse (the embodiment of sin and death) was required to be purified using the mei niddah. The purification procedure took seven days, using stalks of hyssop dipped into the water and shaken over the ritually defiled person on the third day and then again on the seventh day. After the second sprinkling, the person undergoing the purification process would be immersed in a mikvah and then be unclean until the following evening.


The Uniqueness of the Sacrifice

The Parah Adumah sacrifice was entirely unique, for the following reasons:

1. It was the only sacrifice that specifically required an animal of a particular color. This animal was extremely rare and unique of its kind (in fact, Maimonides wrote, "Nine Parot Adumot were prepared from the time the Commandment was given until the destruction of the Second Temple. Moses our Teacher prepared one, Ezra prepared one and seven more were prepared until the Destruction of the Temple. The tenth will prepared by the Mashiach." (We would say “was prepared” by the Mashiach Yeshua, blessed be He.)
2. It was the only sacrifice where all the rituals were carried out outside of the camp (and later, outside the Temple precincts). That is, the “blood applications” of this sacrifice occurred in a location apart from the altar (the Talmud recounts that the High Priest performed the blood applications of the Red Heifer while gazing at the Temple and at the Holy of Holies from a mountain opposite the Temple mount).
3. It was the only sacrifice that ritually contaminated the priest who offered it, but made the one who was sprinkled by it clean.
4. It was the only sacrifice where the ashes were preserved and used (other sacrifices required the ashes be disposed outside of the camp).


The LORD Yeshua, our Mashiach, is the perfect fulfillment of the Parah Adumah, since He was completely without sin or defect (2 Cor 5:21; John 8:46); He was sacrificed outside the camp (Heb 13:13); He made Himself sin for us (2 Cor 5:21); His sprinkling makes us clean (1 Pet 1:2; Heb 12:24; Rev 1:5); and the “water of separation” that His sacrifice created is the means by which we are made clean from the impurity of sin (Eph 5:25-6; Heb 10:22).


The Historical Narrative Resumes: Moses’ Sin

We now fast-forward 38 years later when the people of Israel arrived in the wilderness of Tzin. Moses’ sister Miriam died and was buried, and shortly thereafter the Israelites gathered together to complain to Moses and Aaron because of a lack of water.

Moses and Aaron went into the mishkan and prayed to the LORD. The LORD then instructed Moses to take his staff and to “speak” to the rock “to yield its water.”

“Then Moses and Aaron gathered the assembly together before the rock, and he said to them, "Hear now, you rebels: shall we bring water for you out of this rock?"

It is thought by some commentators that this use of the pronoun “we” was the fateful error of Moses (not the striking of the rock with the staff). God’s judgment was that Moses did not trust Him enough to “sanctify” Him in the presence of all the people, by which it is suggested that Moses’ arrogance was impossible to overlook, since it was performed publicly. Moses and Aaron would therefore die in the wilderness, just as the first generation of Israelites who had failed to trust in the LORD did.

After this, the Israelites were refused passage by the King of Edom and then moved on to Mount Hor, where Aaron died and his son Eleazar was made High Priest.


The Copper Snake (Nechash Nechoshet)

From Mount Hor, the people grew impatient and another rebellion brewed. This time the people murmured not only against Moses, but against the LORD Himself. Consequently, the LORD sent “burning serpents” (haNechashim haseraphim) that bit the people and many Israelites died (the verb saraf means to burn). The people confessed their sin and appealed to Moses for help, who then interceded on their behalf.

The LORD instructed Moses to make a figure of a snake (Nechash Nechoshet) and mount it on a pole so that “everyone who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.”

The Mashiach Yeshua referred to this episode when He spoke to Nicodemus about the way of salvation. “As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life” (John 3:14-15). Humanity as a whole has been “bitten by the snake” and needs to be delivered from its venom. Just as the image made in the likeness of the destroying snake was lifted up for Israel’s healing, so the One made in the likeness of sinful flesh (Rom 8:3) was to be lifted up as the Healer of the world.



[Later, King Hezekiah destroyed the copper snake (called Nechustan in 2 Kings 18:4), since apparently it had been used for idolatrous purposes - a topic that could easily be developed into a derash about the worship of “crucifixes” or other man-made tokens that pertain to the sacrifice of Yeshua our LORD.]

The parashah concludes with details about the route through the Transjordan, including a song Israel sang about the gift of water at B’erah. After further journeying, Israel finally camped in the wastelands of Moab, poised to cross the Jordan and capture Jericho.



Haftarah Reading Snapshot:



The last section of Chukat (i.e., Numbers 21) related how the king of Bashan and the king of Ammon tried to prevent the Jewish people from passing through their borders to get to the promised land. Both kings decided to wage war against Israelites - and both kings lost. The Israelites then settled in their vanquished territories.

The Haftarah for Chukat fast forwards 300 years later, when the king of Ammon demanded that Israel return to him the territories that were conquered - and threatened war if the land was not given back. Yiftach ("Jephthah") was the (rejected) firstborn son of Gilead and a concubine, who had become renowned for his military prowess in the place of his exile (the land of Tov). The leaders of Gilead sought Yiftach’s help and asked him to deliver them from the threat of the Ammonites. Yiftach agreed on the condition that if he was successful, he would be restored as the firstborn of Gilead, and thus the tribal leader.

Yiftach then made a rash vow to the LORD, saying: "If you will give the Ammonites into my hand, then whoever comes out from the doors of my house to meet me when I return in peace from the Ammonites shall be the LORD's, and I will offer up for a burnt offering."

After victoriously returning from his battle with the Ammonites, Yiftach was dismayed to see his own daughter come out of his house to meet him, since this meant that he would be forced to sacrifice her as a burnt offering as he had vowed to the LORD (some commentators believe that she was merely consigned to perpetual virginity, though this reading is unlikely.)

As Kohelet said, "Better not to vow at all than to vow and not fulfill" (Kohelet 5:4). The LORD Yeshua taught us, "Do not take an oath at all... (Matt 5:34-36). Let us take heed!



Brit Chadashah Snapshot:



The Brit Chadashah readings both show how Yeshua the Mashiach is the fulfillment of the “types and shadows” of the Torah (Hebrews 10:1-2).

In the reading from the book of Hebrews, Yeshua’s sacrifice is shown to be superior to the Parah Adumah sacrifice: “For if the sprinkling of defiled persons with the blood of goats and bulls and with the ashes of a heifer sanctifies for the purification of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.”


In the reading from John’s gospel, Yeshua explained to Nicodemus the way of salvation. “As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life” (John 3:14-15). Humanity as a whole has been “bitten by the snake” and needs to be delivered from its venom. We are all perishing with a fatal condition before the LORD.



But just as the image made in the likeness of the destroying snake was lifted up for Israel’s healing, so the One made in the likeness of sinful flesh (Rom 8:3) was to be lifted up as the Healer of the world. The LORD Yeshua became our “serpent” and represented God’s judgment upon our sinful condition. Paradoxically, by looking to Him as the One who bears our judgment before the LORD, we are delivered from the judgment that is rightly our own. We are forgiven and healed on account of the LORD Yeshua’s willingness to become the One who is “smitten of God and afflicted” (Isaiah 53). Praise God Almighty!

[Duchifas]

John wrote: Duchifas wrote: No, we can't agree on this, because (as I bolded in your post) you are generalizing, and quite incorrectly so. Horses don't consume non-kosher animals. Neither do camels. They certainly don't do it in a worse fashion than cows or sheep. So your reasons don't even come close to being applicable.

So no, we absolutely cannot agree on this because it is blatantly wrong.

Is there a fish on the planet that doesn't eat shrimp? Chickens eat cockroaches, heck they eat their own crap....that isn’t kosher.

Huh? Are you refuting your own argument now? Ok, I am cool with that.

Quote: Can we not agree that eating kosher foods is a ceremonial way of keeping oneself sacred before the Lord?

Dude, you are just avoiding your own question now. Yes, ritual purity is involved, but until you give me a good reason as to why swordfish is fundamentally different from tuna fish, and a camel is fundamenally different from a goat, don't tell me that you disagree with my arguments, because you didn't come up with any reasons of your own.

[John]

Duchifas wrote: John wrote: Duchifas wrote: No, we can't agree on this, because (as I bolded in your post) you are generalizing, and quite incorrectly so. Horses don't consume non-kosher animals. Neither do camels. They certainly don't do it in a worse fashion than cows or sheep. So your reasons don't even come close to being applicable.

So no, we absolutely cannot agree on this because it is blatantly wrong.

Is there a fish on the planet that doesn't eat shrimp? Chickens eat cockroaches, heck they eat their own crap....that isn’t kosher.

Huh? Are you refuting your own argument now? Ok, I am cool with that.

Quote: Can we not agree that eating kosher foods is a ceremonial way of keeping oneself sacred before the Lord?

Dude, you are just avoiding your own question now. Yes, ritual purity is involved, but until you give me a good reason as to why swordfish is fundamentally different from tuna fish, and a camel is fundamenally different from a goat, don't tell me that you disagree with my arguments, because you didn't come up with any reasons of your own.

No I'm not refuting my own aurgument. When you eat fish...you're eating shrimp, and when you eat chicken...you're eating thier crap too.


Look, you're the one who said we don't have all the answers...and I agree but we DO have some of the answers. And one thing we can say for sure is that it's about ritual purity. NO?

If you agree to this...we can move on.

[Duchifas]

Quote: No I'm not refuting my own aurgument.

Yes you are. And here is how.

Here is your version of the answer (albeit phrased in a very assertive question form):

Quote: Can we agree that it has to do with defiling yourself? That certain foods were deemed to defile the body ceremonially before the Lord? That the non-kosher animals have negative characteristics that we would absorb by eating their flesh?

Isn't that the answer?

If that is the answer, then if you take into account this:

Quote: When you eat fish...you're eating shrimp, and when you eat chicken...you're eating thier crap too.

When I eat kosher animals, I as much defile myself as when I eat a pig.

So your reason does not stand. Pick another one. :)

Quote: Look, you're the one who said we don't have all the answers...and I agree but we DO have some of the answers. And one thing we can say for sure is that it's about ritual purity. NO?

If you agree to this...we can move on.

Yes, one of the things is ritual purity. Now let's move on to explaining why a cow is pure, and a horsie is not. Ok? You go first.

[John]

Actually my point is that it can't be the actual meat that defiles you, because if you ate a fish that had been eating shrimp all of its life you would be defiled. Therefore it MUST be a ceremonial ritual that symbolizes something.


We both agree that it symbolizes ritual purity. No?

Now if this is true then this ritual MUST represent a TRUTH. When the TRUTH is fulfilled....is the ritual nessasary?

Would one substitute the ritual for the TRUTH it represented?

In other words IF one is already cleansed and once and for all pure...would he or she need to continue ritually purify themselves? Or would it be wiser to enjoy the benefits of being pure and enjoy the fulfilled TRUTH?

[Duchifas]

John wrote: Actually my point is that it can't be the actual meat that defiles you, because if you ate a fish that had been eating shrimp all of its life you would be defiled. Therefore it MUST be a ceremonial ritual that symbolizes something.

I was going to bring this up before when you said "we are what we eat" but I might as well now. We are not what we eat. And your own personal conjectures that tuna fish is unclean because it ate shrimp are just your own personal conjectures. I don't see where you get that from. I haven't seen the "we are what we eat" principle in the Torah. Some things we are allowed to eat, some we are not -- period. So far, you have not given any good reason for the distinction. And, of course, you can't. Because there is no reason that we know of that all kosher animals are somehow inherently different from all non-kosher animals.

Quote: We both agree that it symbolizes ritual purity. No?

Now if this is true then this ritual MUST represent a TRUTH. When the TRUTH is fulfilled....is the ritual nessasary?

Huh? There is no ritual. You just can't eat it, that's all. The word "ritual" is just there to make it clear in English what we are talking about, because there is no adequate word for the Hebrew tameh. So, no, I don't see why your statement is a must.

Quote: Would one substitute the ritual for the TRUTH it represented?

In other words IF one is already cleansed and once and for all pure...would he or she need to continue ritually purify themselves? Or would it be wiser to enjoy the benefits of being pure and enjoy the fulfilled TRUTH?

You are reversing it 100% and you got it all wrong. Eating a cow (or any kosher animal) does not purify you. BUT eating a pig defiles you. Big difference.

[John]

Well, I hope Oak reads this....maybe it'll "light a fire" under his butt. :-D


At least I was hoping to answer his question. If you still don't get it Oak...I'll explain it futher.


Quote: You are reversing it 100% and you got it all wrong. Eating a cow (or any kosher animal) does not purify you. BUT eating a pig defiles you. Big difference.

What's the point of not becoming defiled if you're already defiled? I mean, if something isn't defiled then it's clean....right? So it's a ritual for cleaness no?

Because like I've said already...it can't be the actual meat that makes you unclean because a fish that eats shrimp would be unclean and then you would eat the fish therefore becoming unclean yourself. So it has to be a spiritual ceremonial ritual.

[Duchifas]

Quote: What's the point of not becoming defiled if you're already defiled?

Uh, because it is a sin? Just because you sinned once, preferrably you won't do it again...

Quote: I mean, if something isn't defiled then it's clean....right? So it's a ritual for cleaness no?

As I said -- no. Eating kosher salmon will not do you any more good than eating raspberries.

Quote: Because like I've said already...it can't be the actual meat that makes you unclean because a fish that eats shrimp would be unclean and then you would eat the fish therefore becoming unclean yourself.

Like I've said already, you pulled that out of thin air. On what basis do you assume that when a salmon eats a shrimp (if it ever does), does it become ritually unclean? You seem to view the whole ritually unclean concept as physical for some reason. Like a "you are it" game. Like if a salmon ate a shrimp, it becomes unclean. Where do you pull that from? A Jew eats a shrimp and becomes defiled -- ok, that's in the bible, but that a salmon automatically does? Where do you get that from?

As SpartanPhalanx is fond of saying -- your argument has no legs to stand on. :)

Shabbat is almost here, gotta get going. Have a good one.


So it has to be a spiritual ceremonial ritual.

[John]

Quote:
You are reversing it 100% and you got it all wrong. Eating a cow (or any kosher animal) does not purify you.

You're right!!! Only the BLOOD can.

After Moses had read out all the terms of the plan of the law--God's "will"--he took the blood of sacrificed animals and, in a solemn ritual, sprinkled the document and the people who were its beneficiaries. And then he attested its validity with the words, "This is the blood of the covenant commanded by God." He did the same thing with the place of worship and its furniture. Moses said to the people, "This is the blood of the covenant God has established with you." Practically everything in a will hinges on a death. That's why blood, the evidence of death, is used so much in our tradition, especially regarding forgiveness of sins.

That accounts for the prominence of blood and death in all these secondary practices that point to the realities of heaven. It also accounts for why, when the real thing takes place, these animal sacrifices aren't needed anymore, having served their purpose. For Christ didn't enter the earthly version of the Holy Place; he entered the Place Itself, and offered himself to God as the sacrifice for our sins. He doesn't do this every year as the high priests did under the old plan with blood that was not their own; if that had been the case, he would have to sacrifice himself repeatedly throughout the course of history. But instead he sacrificed himself once and for all, summing up all the other sacrifices in this sacrifice of himself, the final solution of sin.

Everyone has to die once, then face the consequences. Christ's death was also a one-time event, but it was a sacrifice that took care of sins forever. And so, when he next appears, the outcome for those eager to greet him is, precisely, salvation.

That's Hebrews nine from the message.

[psholtz]

John wrote: Quote:
You are reversing it 100% and you got it all wrong. Eating a cow (or any kosher animal) does not purify you.

You're right!!! Only the BLOOD can.
Paganism, pure and simple..

Sorry for the interruption, but someone had to point that out..

Carry w/ the discussion concerning Judiasm .. :wink:

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: Is the purpose of the Torah to show us how to serve G-d, or to satisfy our childish curiosities?

I would say it is to make us aware of sin. Scrupulously following Law surely will not eliminate sin entirely. It probably reduces sinfulness, but I would say that is a function of being aware of sin and wanting to not sin, but as it is said "the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.".

We need something more to be cleansed of sin, such as sacrifice during the dispensation of Law and Faith in Christ Jesus now during the dispensation of Grace.

That's my opinion, anyway.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: I can't see what is wrong with it. Two guys having fun, what's the big deal?


Come now, eating pork etc is a no-no but homosexual sex is OK? That doesn't make sense to me.

[Duchifas]

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: I can't see what is wrong with it. Two guys having fun, what's the big deal?


Come now, eating pork etc is a no-no but homosexual sex is OK? That doesn't make sense to me.

Both are forbidden because G-d said so. But if He didn't, I'd be chowing bacon no problem.

Not the other thing though. :lol:

Quote: We need something more to be cleansed of sin, such as sacrifice during the dispensation of Law and Faith in Christ Jesus now during the dispensation of Grace.

Not to be rude or anything, and I am obviously no moderator so this is only a personal request, but this forum is about Judaism. So just for logistical/organizational purposes, could we maybe keep the JC guy out of here?

And for my part, I'll try to refrain from swarming the Christianity forum with lengthy Talmudic passages.

Same request to you, John. Thanks.

[John]

Quote: Not to be rude or anything, and I am obviously no moderator so this is only a personal request, but this forum is about Judaism. So just for logistical/organizational purposes, could we maybe keep the JC guy out of here?

Things don't get any more Jewish than Jesus Christ. He's the Messiah for crying out loud.

Do you want to ban Messianic Jews from talking in here too? They believe that they practice the true form of Judaism.

But really.....where ever I go Jesus comes with me. :wink:

[David]

If you want to discuss Judaism then fine but if you want to proselytize then do as the others request and stay out of it.Otherwise it could be viewed as a form of trolling.

[John]

David wrote: If you want to discuss Judaism then fine but if you want to proselytize then do as the others request and stay out of it.Otherwise it could be viewed as a form of trolling.


Then enforce the same rules in the Christian section. There shouldn't be ANY Atheists expressing there opinions in there because it's the same thing.

[David]

Report the post when it happens and I will most assuredly deal with them as well.

[John]

David wrote: Report the post when it happens and I will most assuredly deal with them as well.

Then you might as well make these into HQ type places to chat, where only people who believe in a certain thing can talk privately. Other wise.....it's just plain dumb. Why don't you have a section where people can only talk about Republican issues? Because it's dumb. Like this is dumb.

[fourtysixandtwo]

John wrote: David wrote: Report the post when it happens and I will most assuredly deal with them as well.

Then you might as well make these into HQ type places to chat, where only people who believe in a certain thing can talk privately. Other wise.....it's just plain dumb. Why don't you have a section where people can only talk about Republican issues? Because it's dumb. Like this is dumb.

:!?: I thought it was a nice idea to have these, the HQ part would be cool though. Oh, and make a Mystic Hq just for me and anyone who thinks they are cool enough :lol: .