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[cap'n queasy]

Duchifas wrote: Quote: So I would say that some teachers are good and teach the truth and some like Rebbe Scheerson, say some pretty questionable things. And in English too, I might add.

A lot of things are questionable, particularly when one doesn't know what he is talking about.

Now, if you don't mind, here is something from a person who we ALL can agree knew what he was talking about. This is what President Reagan had to say about Rabbi Schneerson. Apparently, cap'n, you and Mr. President have viewed the good Rabbi a bit differently:











http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=142535

Oh no... I think differently than Ronald Reagan? :lol:


Well, I am not going to argue about it. It's a fruitless task.

But here is a last bit of info on the goals of folks like the Rebbe Schneerson. Seesm to me like this attitude lines up quite closely to the End Time described in the Bible.
Quote: The 7 Noachide Laws

While Jews ("Children of Israel") are to fulfill the 613 mitzvot that rabbis find in Torah, "Gentiles" ("Children of Noah" or "Noahides" or "B'nai Noah" or "Hassidic Gentiles") are to follow the 7 Laws that Jews claim were given to Adam, and then to Moses through Noah (or directly to Noah, according to other traditions), and which were subsequently passed down through the ages until they were codified in the Babylonian Talmud. These Laws are:

* Do not murder
* Do not steal
* Do not worship false gods
* Do not be sexually immoral
* Do not eat the limb of an animal before it is killed
* Do not curse God
* Set up courts and bring offenders to justice

OK, not so bad; we can all live with that, right? What's the penalty for breaking one of these laws?

One additional element of greater severity is that violation of any one of the seven laws subjects the Noahide to capital punishment by decapitation. (Sanh. 57A) [my emphasis]

Wow, pretty harsh, but I wasn't planning on eating the limb of a living animal anyway. Not a problem!

Wrong! The trick comes in understanding that these 7 little laws are actually "general categories of commandments, each containing many components and details." 1 Here are a few of those "details" as quoted from http://www.moshiach.com/action/morality/introduction.php, and with their references included. My comments, in brackets, follow each point:

* This God is one. He is not two or more than two, and there is no single existence that is unique and singular like His existence. He is not in a category that includes others of His species. And He is not divided into portions or sections as is a body, but His is a oneness and a uniqueness that has no equal in the universe. (Mishneh Torah, Laws of the Foundation of Torah, chapter 1, law 7)

[Editor: OK, now you and I know that Christians worship ONE God Who is Triune. But we know, too, how Jews misunderstand Christian theology and perceive us as worshipping "three Gods."]

* If there were many gods, they would perforce have bodies, because there is no way to differentiate one being from another except by bodily or material differences. And if the Creator had a body or any material form, He would have both a limit and an end, and His power would have a limit and an end, because it is not possible for there to be a body that has no termination point and everything pertaining to a body also has a termination point. But because of our God, Blessed Be His Name, Whose power is endless and uninterrupted, the planet revolves per­petually, for His power is not a bodily power, and because He has no body, there are no accidents or occurrences of the body that happen to Him which might divide or separate Him from another being. Therefore it is impossible for Him to be anything but One. (Mishneh Torah, Laws of the Foundation of Torah, chapter 1, law 7)

[Editor: Christians know that God, in His Divine Essence, is Spirit, that He is not in "parts" or "divided." But we know, too, that He is differentiated in His Persons by relationship, and that the Second Person took on a human nature for our redemption. To Jews, though, we worship not a Divine Being Who took on a human nature, but a "human being," and we don't worship One God, but "three gods." Christian belief will be criminalized if Noahide Laws were to become the law of the land.]

* Anyone who acknowledges that an idolatrous religion is true, even though he does not serve the idol, reviles the mighty and exalted Name of God. (Mishneh Torah, Laws of Idolatry, chapter 2, law 6)

[Editor: "Idolatrous religion" to a Jew means "Christianity" and other theistic religions aside from Islam (ironically, though they might see "idolatry" in the Muslim reverence of the Kaaba stone at Mecca). Reference Likutei Sichos 37:198, from a letter of Rabbi Schneerson --see below-- dated 16 May 1966 (26 Iyra, 5726), cited in Kol Boi HaOlam, p. 389 which refers to "the known Jewish legal ruling that Christians are idol worshippers."]

* A person transgresses only when he worships the idol in the normal manner ascribed to each respective idol. Consequently, courts of law have to know the appropriate service for the idol in any case of idolatry. The preceding law applies to unique forms of worship. If, however, the person bows down or offers sacrifices or incense or a libation (the four forms of service of the Holy Temple in Jerusalem) to any one of the idols, he incurs the death penalty even though this may not be the way of official worship. (Mishneh Torah, Laws of Idolatry, chapter 3, law 3)

Food placed upon an altar as an offering to an idol is forbidden to be eaten. (Chochmat Adam, Laws of Idolatry, chapter 84, law 6)

[Editor: Now, we know that statues in Catholic churches aren't idols, but -- do they? You bet they don't, any more than the typical fundamentalist Christian or Muslim does. "Food placed upon an altar as an offering to an idol is forbidden"? There goes the Eucharist! A Crucifix adorns every Catholic Altar, and you can bet your last shekel that there is no understanding that the "Food" is Christ Who is offered to the Father.]

* Concerning a sculpture of man, some say the face by itself is forbidden. Others say that sculpture becomes forbidden only if the whole face is made with its body. According to this second opinion, making a human body with its face is permitted as long as one does not make the complete body, but only a portion of it. However, it is proper to follow the stricter first opinion (even if the sculpture is made just for beauty). (Chochmat Adam, Laws of Idolatry, chapter 85, law 4)

It is not forbidden to keep or physically hold the image of a man unless it is distinctly the image of one worshiped as a god. Any other human image may be kept or held, so long as the image is slightly distorted or damaged, such as by chipping the nose, to dispel any suspicion of its being an idolatrous form. This act of damaging is called nullifying the idol. (Chochmat Adam, Laws of Idolatry, chapter 85, law 6)

One should never gaze at three-dimensional images of man. Such acts of gazing are spiritually damaging. But images upon a ring, since they are commonly found without idolatrous connotations, may be gazed upon. (Chochmat Adam, Laws of Idolatry, chapter 85, law 9)

[Editor: There go our Crucifixes. There go veneration of the Holy Cross and the incensing of the Crucifix at Mass, etc.]

* The three chief idolatrous images in the world are:

a. The dragon, which is a derivative of the primordial serpent. (Babylonian Talmud, Avodah Zarah 42b)

b. A full figure of a man offering the beholder something from the palm of his hand. (Babylonian Talmud, Avodah Zarah 41a) (This image is commonly found today in front of certain churches.) (Shulchan Arukh, Yoreh Deah, chapter 141, law 1, Shach note 4)

c. A woman nursing an infant. This is the idolatrous perversion of Eve, the mother of all mankind. It became the symbol of the queen of heaven and is an image that still pervades numerous cultures and religions. (Chochmat Adam, Laws of Idolatry, chapter 85, law 2)

[Editor: There go statues of St. Michael or St. George slaying the dragon, images of St. Nicholas holding a ball, or St. Philomena holding palm branches, statues of Our Lady, etc.]

* Crosses that are publicly displayed are in the category of idols since people give honor to them, remove their hats before them, and bow down or genuflect to them. However, the cross that hangs around a person's neck is considered a memorial and is permitted. Other personal uses like dangling the cross from the rear view mirror of an automobile are also permitted. (Chochmat Adam, Laws of Idolatry, chapter 85, law 1)

[Editor: Ah, there it is explicitly. But it's sweet of these ever-tolerant, ever-suffering, ever put-upon, democratic, diversity-loving Jews (well, maybe not in Israel, but in America and Europe, anyway) to not behead us for having a cross hanging from our rear view mirrors. Crucifixes -- Crosses with those "idols" on them -- are another matter...]

* The teaching in Christian theology that the evil force rebelled against the Lord and set up a separate kingdom is tantamount to blasphemy, for it denigrates the Creator and denies His infinite majesty.

[Editor: And now we're "blasphemers" for believing that God, Who IS supreme over Satan, allows Satan certain powers -- for now.]

Wow! What else will get us killed after the Temple is rebuilt and the rabbis are in charge? How about this: no more study of the Old Testament:

* If a Noahide is striving in the learning of Torah or keeping the Sabbath in the manner of Jews or reveals new aspects of Torah, he may be physically restrained and informed that he is liable for capital punishment, but is not put to death...The action taken against him is only meant to dissuade him from doing forbidden acts. If the court that is established in consonance with the Seven Universal Laws gives the death penalty to a Noahide, the execution is an atonement for this person's transgression, and consequently one who transgresses and is punished by the court can merit a portion in the World to Come. Furthermore, the Noahide must experience reincarnation to be able to atone for transgressions he had done.

And what does it take to be hauled into Court?

* A person may be convicted in a Noahide court by the testimony of a single witness, but only if the witness is known to be righteous. (Mishneh Torah, Laws of Witnesses, chapter 11, law 2)

And we all know who the "righteous" are. Any Jew could haul a Christian into Court for kissing a Crucifix.

"Yeah," I can hear someone thinking, "but who cares? This sort of thing would never come to pass anyway." Read on.

The Chabad-Lubavitcher Movement

It all begins with the birth of Hassidism, a movement founded by the Ukraine-born Israel ben Eliezer, who became known as Baal Shem Tov, or "The Master of the Good Name" (A.D. 1698-1760). Baal Shem Tov studied Kabbalah under Rabbi Isaac Luria, whose version of Kabbalah taught that there was a "Big Bang" event which produced "Holy Sparks," some of which returned to their "Source," and some of which fell into the world of "things" and "beings." All of our actions (including sins), all things, all beings, are filled with these "Holy Sparks" which seek to return to the "Source."

One of Baal Shem Tov's followers, Polish Kabbalist Rabbi Schnuer Zalman, founded Chabad, or "Lubavitcher," and wrote the "Tanya" in 1796, the "key" to Jewish mysticism. Seven successor Rabbis followed, the last being Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson (A.D. 1902-1994), known simply as the "Rebbe." This charismatic figure urged Jews to act as Jews by studying Torah and performing the 613 mitzvos, etc., and for all "Gentiles" to become aware of and honor the Noahide Laws. When enough people have done this, Messiah will come (some Lubavitchers believe that Rabbi Schneerson himself is the Messiah, and await his walking out of his tomb).

Schneerson's work was so effective that Chabad centers have sprung up all over the world, Presidents of the United States have honored him, Congress has awarded him with the Congressional Gold Medal 2 -- the legislation for which must be co-sponsored by at least two-thirds (290) of the Members of the House and 67 Senators. Chabad sponsors huge telethons where the likes of Neil Diamond, Adam Sandler, Elliot Gould, Jon Voight, Regis Philbin, Howie Mandel, etc., show up to lend support.

According to http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Judaism/Lubavitch_and_Chabad.html:

It [Chabad] has become a world-wide Jewish outreach movement. More than 3,700 emissary couples work in more than 100 countries worldwide. Since 1995, more than 400 shlichim (emissaries) were assigned to new posts and more than 500 new Chabad institution have been established, bringing the total to nearly 2,600 institutions (seminaries, day camps, schools, etc) worldwide. According to headquarters, almost one million children participates in Chabad activities worldwide in 1999.

Even worse, the U.S. Congress has, every year since 1978, passed Joint Resolutions, and our Presidents have signed Presidential Proclamations, designating "Education Day" in honor of the "Rebbe" and proclaiming the Noahide Laws the basis of civilization. Below is the text of the Resolution (H.J. Res. 104, Public Law 102-14) passed on 26 March 1991 (link to Congress's website. Will open in new browser window). Emphasis mine:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To designate March 26, 1991, as `Education Day, U.S.A.'. (Engrossed as Agreed to or Passed by House)

102d CONGRESS
1st Session
H. J. RES. 104
JOINT RESOLUTION
To designate March 26, 1991, as `Education Day, U.S.A.'.
HJ 104 EH
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

JOINT RESOLUTION
To designate March 26, 1991, as `Education Day, U.S.A.'.


Whereas Congress recognizes the historical tradition of ethical values and principles which are the basis of civilized society and upon which our great Nation was founded;

Whereas these ethical values and principles have been the bedrock of society from the dawn of civilization, when they were known as the Seven Noahide Laws;

Whereas without these ethical values and principles the edifice of civilization stands in serious peril of returning to chaos;

Whereas society is profoundly concerned with the recent weakening of these principles that has resulted in crises that beleaguer and threaten the fabric of civilized society;

Whereas the justified preoccupation with these crises must not let the citizens of this Nation lose sight of their responsibility to transmit these historical ethical values from our distinguished past to the generations of the future;

Whereas the Lubavitch movement has fostered and promoted these ethical values and principles throughout the world;

Whereas Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, leader of the Lubavitch movement, is universally respected and revered and his eighty-ninth birthday falls on March 26, 1991;

Whereas in tribute to this great spiritual leader, `the rebbe,' this, his ninetieth year will be seen as one of `education and giving,' the year in which we turn to education and charity to return the world to the moral and ethical values contained in the Seven Noahide Laws; and

Whereas this will be reflected in an international scroll of honor signed by the President of the United States and other heads of state: Now, therefore, be it

Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That March 26, 1991, the start of the ninetieth year of Rabbi Menachem Schneerson, leader of the worldwide Lubavitch movement, is designated as `Education Day, U.S.A.'. The President is requested to issue a proclamation calling upon the people of the United States to observe such day with appropriate ceremonies and activities.

Passed the House of Representatives March 5, 1991.

Attest:

Clerk.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And the ultimate goal? According to the "Rebbe" [my emphasis]:

The main avodah [spiritual goal] of this generation is to go out to the final war of the golus, to conquer and to purify all the gentile countries (such that 'and kingship will be Hashem's,' Ovadiah 1:21). (Shabbos Parshas VaYelech, 5746)

Consequently, it is obvious and self-evident that in modern times we must carry out the Divine Command we received through Moshe [Moses]: 'To compel all human beings to accept the commandments enjoined upon the descendants of Noach. (Shabbos Parshas Tsav, 5747, Sichos in English, vol. 35, p. 75)

The Seven Laws must be explained in a way that the nations can relate to and, because non-Jews do not possess genuine free will, they will be willing to change more quickly and easily than a Jew. (Hisvaduyos 5748 3:183, cited in "The Deed is the Main Thing," Kol Boi Ha'olam, p. 385-386)

Even in the future, the nations will continue to exist, to serve and help the Jewish people.… This, then, is our lesson -- to increase our activities in the areas where the many will be influenced: Jews, the world, and the nations. (Shabbos Parshas Vayeishev, 21 Kislev, 5745)

And according to his followers (see http://www.noahide.com/finalwar.htm):

In the second stage, the growing Noachide movement will seize political power--using only peaceful, lawful means--in the capitals of the Western nations. This, of course, will not take place until the Noachide society has grown to some threshold size. We do not know how large this needs to be nor which nations will join the revolution first, although the United States, as a fairly religious, conservative nation, certainly tops the list of prospects.

Upon seizing the reins of government, the new Noachide leaders will move quickly to implement a full agenda of reform. All economic and technological aid to the Communist Bloc, including the PLO, will be terminated immediately. Full support will be given to Israeli forces to reinvade PLO-controlled areas, with military assistance offered where necessary. Jewish courts (the batei dini of the rabbis) will be granted full legal sovereignty over Jewish citizens within each country, who will no longer be subject to the authority of gentile courts. The pre-existing Noachide judges and courts will replace the existing court system of each country, and the legal code will be drastically rewritten to conform to halacha; in the United States, the emphasis will be on restoring the authority of the Constitution and abolishing all unconstitutional government programs and agencies. The national debt will be foreclosed, probably by paying off creditors with government land holdings, thus averting economic disaster. And law and order will be fully restored through the establishment of internal security measures, again in accordance with Torah law.

Almost as soon as aid to the Communist Bloc stops, the international Communist revolution will plunge headlong into crisis. The captive peoples, seeing their liberation at hand, will genuinely rise up to throw their brutal dictators out of power, and the armies of Gog and Magog--ranging from the Soviet Communists to the PLO--will self-destruct before the eyes of the entire world.

Naturally, Amalek's agents will scream hysterically to intimidate Jews from carrying out the above campaign, hoping to delay this victory. They have no power, however, to prevent our successful action; they can only try to create doubts and hesitation.

As the world plunges headlong toward the imminent revelation of Moshiach while the last walls of the exile disintegrate, the number of confused gentiles ready to change is rising exponentially. If the Jewish people immediately begin preparing adequate structures for the Noachide movement, this tide will be channeled directly into a glorious revelation of Truth. But if we allow ourselves to be caught unprepared, this same overwhelming force for social change can, G-d forbid, be diverted to empower Amalek's final assault on holiness. It is not a matter of whether gentile society will explode in the face of the growing crisis; this event is an inevitable, and fast-approaching, reality. We do not want to miss this incredible opportunity to provide light in the final moments of darkness.

The world has reached its ultimate point of decision, and the power to succeed belongs entirely to the Jewish people. We can wait until Moshiach comes on his own, following a world war, or we can bring him through our own actions, as the Lubavitcher Rebbe has stated is our mission. The choice is ours.
http://www.kensmen.com/catholic/jc2.html


Chabad.org (the site you linked to) is promoing this movement in a very seemingly innocuous way. But the words of Rebbe Scheerson himself tell us what the goal of the movement is:
Quote: The main avodah [spiritual goal] of this generation is to go out to the final war of the golus, to conquer and to purify all the gentile countries (such that 'and kingship will be Hashem's,' Ovadiah 1:21). (Shabbos Parshas VaYelech, 5746)

Consequently, it is obvious and self-evident that in modern times we must carry out the Divine Command we received through Moshe [Moses]: 'To compel all human beings to accept the commandments enjoined upon the descendants of Noach. (Shabbos Parshas Tsav, 5747, Sichos in English, vol. 35, p. 75)

The Seven Laws must be explained in a way that the nations can relate to and, because non-Jews do not possess genuine free will, they will be willing to change more quickly and easily than a Jew. (Hisvaduyos 5748 3:183, cited in "The Deed is the Main Thing," Kol Boi Ha'olam, p. 385-386)

Even in the future, the nations will continue to exist, to serve and help the Jewish people.… This, then, is our lesson -- to increase our activities in the areas where the many will be influenced: Jews, the world, and the nations. (Shabbos Parshas Vayeishev, 21 Kislev, 5745)

Gentiles have no free will? Pfffft. That guy is a nut. Evidently this is why you like to gloss over the material the Talmud contains.

The "messiah" that the good Rebbe describes sure makes it sound like the "messiah" you are waiting for is what the Bible calls the "Man of Sin" or as people commonly call him, the antichrist.

Christ Jesus is the Anointed One, as foretold in the Scriptures. He fits the criteria exactly. Those who do not follow Him are heading for a rude awakening. He came to redeem all people of their sins so they can be with Him, I think it is this idea that many people dislike so much.

He will not come back until the mess that these types of bad ideas cause gets so bad for everyone that Israel cries out to Him for forgiveness.

We cannot fix this world by the works of our hands, without God. And He will fix it, unfortunately for those who do not believe the Scriptures it will be a very rough time for them. It will play out exactly as written.

Satan is at work in the world, it seems. He wants people to reject Lord Jesus even to this day. It sure makes me sad to see that he has such a hold of a fine, industrious people like Jewish folks that most cannot see what is right in front of their faces, that what is described in the Scriptures has happened every step of the way. That Jesus is the Anointed One foretold in the Scriptures.

Like the Amalek that they so despise they see the Hand of God at work in the world and attribute to "natural phenomena".

Very discouraging. But it is God's Will to test our devotion to Him.

[psholtz]

Duchifas wrote: A lot of things are questionable, particularly when one doesn't know what he is talking about.

Now, if you don't mind, here is something from a person who we ALL can agree knew what he was talking about. This is what President Reagan had to say about Rabbi Schneerson. Apparently, cap'n, you and Mr. President have viewed the good Rabbi a bit differently:
Move along now .. move along! Nothing to see here!! :lol:

[Duchifas]

Quote: Move along now .. move along! Nothing to see here!!

psholtz, you don't like the fashion? black hats intimidate you, or something? :lol:


cap'n, your ability to dig up trash on the internet is absolutely unparalleled. For your future info though, if someone, even noahide.com, cites someone, doesn't make one a follower automatically.

Pope John Paul was a great guy, in my opinion, and he said a lot of great things. And every now and then, I like to cite him. But that's a far cry from labeling me as his real follower.

To put it another way, just because the people who pervert the Rebbe's message on trashy sites consider themselves his followers, does not mean that the Rebbe would necessarily consider them his followers. Get it?

As to:

Quote: Oh no... I think differently than Ronald Reagan?

Between the two of you, I will pick Mr. President every single time.

Quote: It sure makes me sad to see that he has such a hold of a fine, industrious people like Jewish folks that most cannot see what is right in front of their faces, that what is described in the Scriptures has happened every step of the way.

It's ok, don't be too sad. Most of us will dumb Jewish folk will perish in the rapture (is that what you call it?), and the rest of ya'all will be fine and dandy, looking for conspiracy theories with pszholtz on trashy sites. :rotf:

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: To put it another way, just because the people who pervert the Rebbe's message on trashy sites consider themselves his followers, does not mean that the Rebbe would necessarily consider them his followers. Get it?



Hey, that's what the guy said in public. Not what some supposed follower's opinion of what he said.


That gentiles have no real free will and that is why they could easily be compelled to follow Noachide Law. If he didn't say that why would I take issue with his opinions of the matter. That's the same thing as saying certain races are lazyor dishonest, it's just not true. I think he is wrong, that's all.


Quote: Jewish folk will perish in the rapture

That's the sad part, not something to be happy about. You kind of have twisted way of looking at things, if I may say so.

Actually, it is the time of Jacob's trouble, or the tribulation, where many folks in Israel, as well as Christians all over the world, will be killed.
(Actually, people in general will die in great numbers in the tribulation. But people who see the rapture and become Christians and Jews in particular will be focused on.)

When the people of Israel cry out for the Y'shua HaMashiach to return and deliver them, He will.

The Rapture doesn't kill people. It takes the presence of the Holy Spirit out of the world so God can pour out His wrath.

[Duchifas]

cap'n queasy wrote:
Duchifas wrote: Jewish folk will perish in the rapture
That's the sad part, not something to be happy about.

So let me get it straight....you are NOT looking forward to it? As in, do you want it to happen or don't you?

[Secondary Oak]

Duchifas wrote: cap'n queasy wrote:
Duchifas wrote: Jewish folk will perish in the rapture
That's the sad part, not something to be happy about.

So let me get it straight....you are NOT looking forward to it? As in, do you want it to happen or don't you?
Doesn't a woman look forward to giving birth, even if it means a lot of pain?

Not that I believe Christian or Jewish messianic beliefs, but I can't refuse an opportunity for a good analogy :)

[John]

Secondary Oak wrote: Duchifas wrote: cap'n queasy wrote:
Duchifas wrote: Jewish folk will perish in the rapture
That's the sad part, not something to be happy about.

So let me get it straight....you are NOT looking forward to it? As in, do you want it to happen or don't you?
Doesn't a woman look forward to giving birth, even if it means a lot of pain?

Not that I believe Christian or Jewish messianic beliefs, but I can't refuse an opportunity for a good analogy :)

That's a pretty good analogy.

Of course we're not looking forward to the Day of the Lord. But the result will be the Messianic Kingdom. So the answer is yes and no.

[Duchifas]

Secondary Oak wrote: Duchifas wrote: cap'n queasy wrote:
Duchifas wrote: Jewish folk will perish in the rapture
That's the sad part, not something to be happy about.

So let me get it straight....you are NOT looking forward to it? As in, do you want it to happen or don't you?
Doesn't a woman look forward to giving birth, even if it means a lot of pain?

Not that I believe Christian or Jewish messianic beliefs, but I can't refuse an opportunity for a good analogy :)

Oakie, it's rapture, not rupture. :rotf:

[John]

Duchifas wrote: Secondary Oak wrote: Duchifas wrote: cap'n queasy wrote:
Duchifas wrote: Jewish folk will perish in the rapture
That's the sad part, not something to be happy about.

So let me get it straight....you are NOT looking forward to it? As in, do you want it to happen or don't you?
Doesn't a woman look forward to giving birth, even if it means a lot of pain?

Not that I believe Christian or Jewish messianic beliefs, but I can't refuse an opportunity for a good analogy :)

Oakie, it's rapture, not rupture. :rotf:

Actually Jesus and later Paul used the very same analogy.

You been doing your homework, Oak?

[Duchifas]

Quote: Actually Jesus and later Paul used the very same analogy.

Please, if even Paul came up with something like that, you don't think Oak could?

Quote: You been doing your homework, Oak?

Yeah, Oak, I second that! How's programming going? Don't slack....;)

[cap'n queasy]

Secondary Oak wrote: Duchifas wrote: cap'n queasy wrote:
Duchifas wrote: Jewish folk will perish in the rapture
That's the sad part, not something to be happy about.

So let me get it straight....you are NOT looking forward to it? As in, do you want it to happen or don't you?
Doesn't a woman look forward to giving birth, even if it means a lot of pain?

Not that I believe Christian or Jewish messianic beliefs, but I can't refuse an opportunity for a good analogy :)

Thank you.

Did you know that is exactly how the Bible describes it as well?
Quote: Matthew 24:4-31 -
4 And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you. 5 "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many. 6 "You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. 7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. 8 "But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. 9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10 "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. 11 "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. 12 "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. 13 "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. 14 "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come. 15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 17 "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. 18 "Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. 19 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23 "Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe him. 24 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. 25 "Behold, I have told you in advance. 26 "So if they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them. 27 "For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 "Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather. 29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

So it is Good News, but it is like all good things, tinged with great sadness.


If only everyone would hear and understand the message. :(

[John]

cap'n queasy wrote: Secondary Oak wrote: Duchifas wrote: cap'n queasy wrote:
Duchifas wrote: Jewish folk will perish in the rapture
That's the sad part, not something to be happy about.

So let me get it straight....you are NOT looking forward to it? As in, do you want it to happen or don't you?
Doesn't a woman look forward to giving birth, even if it means a lot of pain?

Not that I believe Christian or Jewish messianic beliefs, but I can't refuse an opportunity for a good analogy :)

Thank you.

Did you know that is exactly how the Bible describes it as well?
Quote: Matthew 24:4-31 -
4 And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you. 5 "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many. 6 "You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. 7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. 8 "But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. 9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10 "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. 11 "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. 12 "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. 13 "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. 14 "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come. 15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 17 "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. 18 "Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. 19 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23 "Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe him. 24 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. 25 "Behold, I have told you in advance. 26 "So if they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them. 27 "For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 "Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather. 29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

So it is Good News, but it is like all good things, tinged with great sadness.


If only everyone would hear and understand the message. :(

Check out this interesting Jewish custom.

http://www.askmoses.com/qa_detail.html?h=407&o=94

[Duchifas]

:lol: Now that was funny. :) Laughed so hard - my veil of blindness almost slipped off.

[cap'n queasy]

Duchifas wrote: :lol: Now that was funny. :) Laughed so hard - my veil of blindness almost slipped off.

:lol: That's classic.

Hmmm.... I feel an idea coming on.

[Israel]

cap'n queasy wrote:
I see what you mean, but as far as I have been able to discover, the NASB is a very solid translation.


cap'n queasy wrote: What does NASB stand for?

[John]

Israel wrote: cap'n queasy wrote:
I see what you mean, but as far as I have been able to discover, the NASB is a very solid translation.


cap'n queasy wrote: What does NASB stand for?


That's not the half of it. You'd really be blown away by the change in Cap'n Q. Did you ever speak to Cap'n before he had his experience with God about a year an a half ago?

He has been an awesome example of the Grace of God and the reality of the Holy Spirit moving into someones life.

Cap'n has become a shining personal example of how when everything seems hopeless, that God has a plan.

[Achilles The Myrmidon]

John wrote: Israel wrote: cap'n queasy wrote:
I see what you mean, but as far as I have been able to discover, the NASB is a very solid translation.


cap'n queasy wrote: What does NASB stand for?


That's not the half of it. You'd really be blown away by the change in Cap'n Q. Did you ever speak to Cap'n before he had his experience with God about a year an a half ago?

He has been an awesome example of the Grace of God and the reality of the Holy Spirit moving into someones life.

Cap'n has become a shining personal example of how when everything seems hopeless, that God has a plan. To think that you know is far more worst that dont know...

[Israel]

John wrote: That's not the half of it. You'd really be blown away by the change in Cap'n Q. Did you ever speak to Cap'n before he had his experience with God about a year an a half ago?

He has been an awesome example of the Grace of God and the reality of the Holy Spirit moving into someones life.

Cap'n has become a shining personal example of how when everything seems hopeless, that God has a plan.
Cool, I'm happy for him, have a good Shabbat.

[John]

Israel wrote: John wrote: That's not the half of it. You'd really be blown away by the change in Cap'n Q. Did you ever speak to Cap'n before he had his experience with God about a year an a half ago?

He has been an awesome example of the Grace of God and the reality of the Holy Spirit moving into someones life.

Cap'n has become a shining personal example of how when everything seems hopeless, that God has a plan.
Cool, I'm happy for him, have a good Shabbat.

I'm happy for him too. Thanks..I will.

[Achilles The Myrmidon]

John wrote: Israel wrote: John wrote: That's not the half of it. You'd really be blown away by the change in Cap'n Q. Did you ever speak to Cap'n before he had his experience with God about a year an a half ago?

He has been an awesome example of the Grace of God and the reality of the Holy Spirit moving into someones life.

Cap'n has become a shining personal example of how when everything seems hopeless, that God has a plan.
Cool, I'm happy for him, have a good Shabbat.

I'm happy for him too. Thanks..I will. WHAT??????????????????John are you celebrating Shabbat?I am afraid i was right about you...