Political Crossfire Forums

Suleiman the Magnificent · Joined: 07 Jul 2005 Posts: 109

Quote: Sorry to jump in (unannounced ;)) here, but...

Isn't the very concept of "innocent people" a western, even secular one - where does it refer to "innocent people" in the Qu'ran?

On the contraty, the Qu'ran seems to explicity state, time & time again, that Moslems have a DUTY to KILL all non-Moslems ("disbelievers") .. for example:

[from Surah 9:] "111 Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an.

123 O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you,, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."

.. it's fairly explicit really, isn't it?

The Qu'ran does prohibit the killing of innocents - it is not a Western or a secular idea. Look through this thread and you will see verses from the Noble Qu'ran that I posted that support what I am saying.

Those verses you posted are referring to when the Pagans were oppressing and fighting the Muslims.

Quote: The idea that "non-believers" (such as myself) can from a Moslem perspective be in any ultimate sense "innocent" is really kinda absurd if you think about it, since our ultimate fate (apparently) is to suffer in some eternal fire for our transgressions (or, simply, for choosing not to believe in your "merciful", "kind" god) .. so in what sense, other than in a purely secular, humanistic sense, can any non- Moslems be said to be innocent, if you believe our "transgressions" are so great as to deserve some sort of eternal punishment .. it's a complete & utter, hopeless contradiction really, isn't it? :?

The Qu'ran PROHIBITS forcing people to convert to Islam.

"Let there be no compulsion (forcing others) in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. (The Noble Quran, 2:256)"

The Qu'ran PROHIBITS forcing people to convert to Islam (as you can see above).

"Tell those who believe, to forgive those who do not look forward to the days of Allah: It is for Him to recompense (for good or ill) each people according to what they have earned (The Noble Qu'ran, 45:14)"

"Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book [Jews and Christians] are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous. (The Noble Quran, 3:113-3:114)"

"Who can be better in religion than one who submits his whole self to God, does good, and follows the way of Abraham the true in Faith? For God did take Abraham for a friend. (The Noble Quran, 4:125)"

As you can see here, just beacause you are not a Muslim does not mean you are damned to burn in Hell.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24191

Suleiman the Magnificent wrote: Quote: Sorry to jump in (unannounced ;)) here, but...

Isn't the very concept of "innocent people" a western, even secular one - where does it refer to "innocent people" in the Qu'ran?

On the contraty, the Qu'ran seems to explicity state, time & time again, that Moslems have a DUTY to KILL all non-Moslems ("disbelievers") .. for example:

[from Surah 9:] "111 Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an.

123 O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you,, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."

.. it's fairly explicit really, isn't it?

The Qu'ran does prohibit the killing of innocents - it is not a Western or a secular idea. Look through this thread and you will see verses from the Noble Qu'ran that I posted that support what I am saying.

Those verses you posted are referring to when the Pagans were oppressing and fighting the Muslims.

Quote: The idea that "non-believers" (such as myself) can from a Moslem perspective be in any ultimate sense "innocent" is really kinda absurd if you think about it, since our ultimate fate (apparently) is to suffer in some eternal fire for our transgressions (or, simply, for choosing not to believe in your "merciful", "kind" god) .. so in what sense, other than in a purely secular, humanistic sense, can any non- Moslems be said to be innocent, if you believe our "transgressions" are so great as to deserve some sort of eternal punishment .. it's a complete & utter, hopeless contradiction really, isn't it? :?

The Qu'ran PROHIBITS forcing people to convert to Islam.

"Let there be no compulsion (forcing others) in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. (The Noble Quran, 2:256)"

The Qu'ran PROHIBITS forcing people to convert to Islam (as you can see above).

"Tell those who believe, to forgive those who do not look forward to the days of Allah: It is for Him to recompense (for good or ill) each people according to what they have earned (The Noble Qu'ran, 45:14)"

"Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book [Jews and Christians] are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous. (The Noble Quran, 3:113-3:114)"

"Who can be better in religion than one who submits his whole self to God, does good, and follows the way of Abraham the true in Faith? For God did take Abraham for a friend. (The Noble Quran, 4:125)"

As you can see here, just beacause you are not a Muslim does not mean you are damned to burn in Hell.

Is being "righteous" a guarantee of Salvation under Islam?

Suleiman the Magnificent · Joined: 07 Jul 2005 Posts: 109

John wrote: Suleiman the Magnificent wrote: Quote: Sorry to jump in (unannounced ;)) here, but...

Isn't the very concept of "innocent people" a western, even secular one - where does it refer to "innocent people" in the Qu'ran?

On the contraty, the Qu'ran seems to explicity state, time & time again, that Moslems have a DUTY to KILL all non-Moslems ("disbelievers") .. for example:

[from Surah 9:] "111 Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an.

123 O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you,, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."

.. it's fairly explicit really, isn't it?

The Qu'ran does prohibit the killing of innocents - it is not a Western or a secular idea. Look through this thread and you will see verses from the Noble Qu'ran that I posted that support what I am saying.

Those verses you posted are referring to when the Pagans were oppressing and fighting the Muslims.

Quote: The idea that "non-believers" (such as myself) can from a Moslem perspective be in any ultimate sense "innocent" is really kinda absurd if you think about it, since our ultimate fate (apparently) is to suffer in some eternal fire for our transgressions (or, simply, for choosing not to believe in your "merciful", "kind" god) .. so in what sense, other than in a purely secular, humanistic sense, can any non- Moslems be said to be innocent, if you believe our "transgressions" are so great as to deserve some sort of eternal punishment .. it's a complete & utter, hopeless contradiction really, isn't it? :?

The Qu'ran PROHIBITS forcing people to convert to Islam.

"Let there be no compulsion (forcing others) in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. (The Noble Quran, 2:256)"

The Qu'ran PROHIBITS forcing people to convert to Islam (as you can see above).

"Tell those who believe, to forgive those who do not look forward to the days of Allah: It is for Him to recompense (for good or ill) each people according to what they have earned (The Noble Qu'ran, 45:14)"

"Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book [Jews and Christians] are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous. (The Noble Quran, 3:113-3:114)"

"Who can be better in religion than one who submits his whole self to God, does good, and follows the way of Abraham the true in Faith? For God did take Abraham for a friend. (The Noble Quran, 4:125)"

As you can see here, just beacause you are not a Muslim does not mean you are damned to burn in Hell.

Is being "righteous" a guarantee of Salvation under Islam?

Basically.

If the good you've done in your life outweighs the bad you've done.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24191

Quote: Basically.

If the good you've done in your life outweighs the bad you've done.

Where does the Quran say this?

Suleiman the Magnificent · Joined: 07 Jul 2005 Posts: 109

John wrote: Quote: Basically.

If the good you've done in your life outweighs the bad you've done.

Where does the Quran say this?

Look at some of the quotes I used in the above post. I'm going to have to take a look at my Qu'ran to find the verses (I don't have a post-it note on the page :) ).

pharaoh · Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 3:09 am Post subject:

John wrote: Suleiman the Magnificent wrote: Quote: Sorry to jump in (unannounced ;)) here, but...

Isn't the very concept of "innocent people" a western, even secular one - where does it refer to "innocent people" in the Qu'ran?

On the contraty, the Qu'ran seems to explicity state, time & time again, that Moslems have a DUTY to KILL all non-Moslems ("disbelievers") .. for example:

[from Surah 9:] "111 Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an.

123 O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you,, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."

.. it's fairly explicit really, isn't it?

The Qu'ran does prohibit the killing of innocents - it is not a Western or a secular idea. Look through this thread and you will see verses from the Noble Qu'ran that I posted that support what I am saying.

Those verses you posted are referring to when the Pagans were oppressing and fighting the Muslims.

Quote: The idea that "non-believers" (such as myself) can from a Moslem perspective be in any ultimate sense "innocent" is really kinda absurd if you think about it, since our ultimate fate (apparently) is to suffer in some eternal fire for our transgressions (or, simply, for choosing not to believe in your "merciful", "kind" god) .. so in what sense, other than in a purely secular, humanistic sense, can any non- Moslems be said to be innocent, if you believe our "transgressions" are so great as to deserve some sort of eternal punishment .. it's a complete & utter, hopeless contradiction really, isn't it? :?

The Qu'ran PROHIBITS forcing people to convert to Islam.

"Let there be no compulsion (forcing others) in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. (The Noble Quran, 2:256)"

The Qu'ran PROHIBITS forcing people to convert to Islam (as you can see above).

"Tell those who believe, to forgive those who do not look forward to the days of Allah: It is for Him to recompense (for good or ill) each people according to what they have earned (The Noble Qu'ran, 45:14)"

"Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book [Jews and Christians] are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous. (The Noble Quran, 3:113-3:114)"

"Who can be better in religion than one who submits his whole self to God, does good, and follows the way of Abraham the true in Faith? For God did take Abraham for a friend. (The Noble Quran, 4:125)"

As you can see here, just beacause you are not a Muslim does not mean you are damned to burn in Hell.

Is being "righteous" a guarantee of Salvation under Islam?

No.If you are righteous but you didnt convert to Islam even though you knew its a divine religion,you will not go to paradise.

3:19 The Religion before God is Islam (submission to His Will): Nor did the People of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of God, God is swift in calling to account.

3:83 Do they seek for other than the Religion of God?-while all creatures in the heavens and on earth have, willing or unwilling, bowed to His Will (Accepted Islam), and to Him shall they all be brought back.

3:85 If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to God), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24191

Quote: No.If you are righteous but you didnt convert to Islam even though you knew its a divine religion,you will not go to paradise.

What about if you convert to Islam. Where does it say that you'll go to paradise?

triffidfood · Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 1045 Location: Mid Wales (UK)

Suleiman,

Sorry to jump back a few posts, but I started back reading this topic from the beginning and am interested in something you said in reply to a previous post (thanks for starting this topic by the way 8) ….)

Quote: "Those who are wretched shall be in the Fire: There will be for them therein (nothing but) the heaving of sighs and sobs: They will dwell therein for all the time that the heavens and the earth endure, except as thy Lord willeth: for thy Lord is the (sure) accomplisher of what He planneth. And those who are blessed shall be in the Garden: They will dwell therein for all the time that the heavens and the earth endure, except as thy Lord willeth: a gift without break. (The Noble Quran, 11:106-108)"

Hell is a purifying place. Eventually, it will be empty.

Sorry to pick you up on this, but where does it say that Hell will eventually be emoty?

I admit I only have a patchy understanding of the Qu’ran, but it seems to me to make clear over again that ‘Hell’ is not only extremely unpleasant place (a place of torture, essentially) but that it is also eternal.

Otherwise, what does…

”[Surah Baqarah] 167: Thus will Allah show them [disbelievers] their own deeds as anguish for them, and they will not emerge from the Fire. ”

.... actually mean?

(Actually, even the verse you quoted - "They will dwell therein for all the time that the heavens and the earth endure, except as thy Lord willeth" - seems to suggest that the suffering & torment of Hell is eternal, doesn't it?)l

To me, the very idea of choosing to worship a ‘god’ who permits the existence of a place of (eternal?) suffering & torture, set aside for (amongst others) people who choose simply not to believe in Him, is immoral & inhumane. :(

The Qu’ran (like the Bible) states over again that (1) ‘Hell’ exists, (2) it is a place of suffering & torment and (3) that this place of divine torture & suffering is eternal (although there is a 1000 year until final judgement thing in the Old Testament, slightly confusingly).

Does the Qu’ran actually explicity say that ‘Hell’ will eventually be empty Suleiman, and also where does it say that it is intended as a place of “purification” (other than maybe in some sort of twisted, perverse ’purification’/ redemption-through-suffering sense?)

curious_pixie · Joined: 03 Jun 2005 Posts: 82

John wrote: Quote: No.If you are righteous but you didnt convert to Islam even though you knew its a divine religion,you will not go to paradise.

What about if you convert to Islam. Where does it say that you'll go to paradise?

Now John, would you have us believe that a statement like that exhausts your, admittedly vast, knowledge of monotheistic religions? Do I really need to answer whether joining a religion automatically gets you into heaven?

You can do better - this isn't criticism, only you're withholding the breadth of your vision and the acuteness of your analysis as shown in other posts. I suggest we get down down to "real" issues, which I arrogantly perceive of being the differences between Christian and Islamic worship.

But for the sake of argument, I shall return your question: is getting a bit of water dripped on your newborn head a guarantee for entering paradise?

pharaoh · Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 12:45 pm Post subject:

Quote: What about if you convert to Islam. Where does it say that you'll go to paradise?

curious_pixie already replied to your question and i fully agree with him.

Quote: But for the sake of argument, I shall return your question: is getting a bit of water dripped on your newborn head a guarantee for entering paradise?

Nice :clap:

triffidfood,

Quote: I admit I only have a patchy understanding of the Qu’ran, but it seems to me to make clear over again that ‘Hell’ is not only extremely unpleasant place (a place of torture, essentially) but that it is also eternal.

Hell is only eternal for certain people.Like killers and those who didnt believe in god and hypocrytes.
As for the rest,they will remain in hell and suffer for the sins that they committed that outweight the good deeds.
Then they will go to paradise.

Quote: To me, the very idea of choosing to worship a ‘god’ who permits the existence of a place of (eternal?) suffering & torture, set aside for (amongst others) people who choose simply not to believe in Him, is immoral & inhumane.

No,god is just.Whether you go to heaven or hell is up to you.No one is forcing you to believe in god and no one is forcing you to deny his existence.
Yes hell is indeed a horrible place but on the other hand there is heaven which is an EXTREMELY beautiful place,the exact opposite of hell.
Its up to you to decide where you want to go,its all about choice,free will.You can choose to go to heaven...forever and you can choose to go to hell....forever.
God has created hell as a punishment to all humans that didnt follow god laws and rules.And these laws and rules are there to make us live in happiness on earth.Instead mankind choose to kill,steal,lie and commit other evil deeds for that you have caused mischief on earth instead of trying to build and be constructive.
How come a slave such as you and me dont believe in God? God who has created everything in this world,he created you and me,he blessed you with at least millions of favors and blessings.Instead of being thankful,man choose to be arrogant and deny the existence of god.For that,he deserves hell.

Krysis · Joined: 22 May 2004 Posts: 844 Location: Yorkshire

Quote: Hell is only eternal for certain people.Like killers and those who didnt believe in god and hypocrytes.

How on earth can you manage to compare a killer to someone who doesnt believe in god? You've just put someone who could be an aid worker that saves people living in poverty and gives all they can to someone who kills someone for the sake of gaining money or power. If that is how your god behaves - he is not just.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24191

Quote: curious_pixie already replied to your question and i fully agree with him.

Well, is it in there or not? If you ask me the same question about the Bible, I can give you an answer. You should be able to do the same....no?

pharaoh · Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 2:30 pm Post subject:

Krysis,

Quote: How on earth can you manage to compare a killer to someone who doesnt believe in god? You've just put someone who could be an aid worker that saves people living in poverty and gives all they can to someone who kills someone for the sake of gaining money or power. If that is how your god behaves - he is not just.

I know what you mean but you are missing the point.
This aid worker may be a good man who helps people and such but he nevertheless committed a tremendous sin.He committed a sin towards god by denying him.How could you deny the existence of god who has created you.And he has created you to worship him and build the earth?
This life is just one big test.And this aid worker may be a good man but he sinned by not worshiping god and denying his existence.There is no sin that is bigger than that imo.
Dont forget that god will not judge us on things we dont know of.For instance,if someone didnt hear about Islam or heard false things about it,he will not be accused of denying the religion of god as far as i know.
But ofcourse people like us who can use the internet to learn about anything anytime will be hold responsible as far as i know.

John,

Quote: Well, is it in there or not? If you ask me the same question about the Bible, I can give you an answer. You should be able to do the same....no?

So you are slow? Okay,even muslims go to hell,being a muslim is only the first step in a long road.A muslim can kill someone without a right cause and so he has condemned himself to hell forever.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24191

Quote: So you are slow? Okay,even muslims go to hell,being a muslim is only the first step in a long road.A muslim can kill someone without a right cause and so he has condemned himself to hell forever.

I'm not sure what about what I asked caused you to say that. :?

All I want to know, is where in the Quran it states that a good Muslim will go to Heaven.

pharaoh · Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 2:39 pm Post subject:

John wrote: Quote: So you are slow? Okay,even muslims go to hell,being a muslim is only the first step in a long road.A muslim can kill someone without a right cause and so he has condemned himself to hell forever.

I'm not sure what about what I asked caused you to say that. :?

All I want to know, is where in the Quran it states that a good Muslim will go to Heaven.

Everywhere.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24191

pharaoh wrote: John wrote: Quote: So you are slow? Okay,even muslims go to hell,being a muslim is only the first step in a long road.A muslim can kill someone without a right cause and so he has condemned himself to hell forever.

I'm not sure what about what I asked caused you to say that. :?

All I want to know, is where in the Quran it states that a good Muslim will go to Heaven.

Everywhere.

Then it should be easy. Where?

Duchifas · Joined: 22 Jun 2004 Posts: 9950

John wrote: Quote: So you are slow? Okay,even muslims go to hell,being a muslim is only the first step in a long road.A muslim can kill someone without a right cause and so he has condemned himself to hell forever.

I'm not sure what about what I asked caused you to say that. :?

All I want to know, is where in the Quran it states that a good Muslim will go to Heaven.

What's the unhealthy obsession with heaven? Life on earth is too boring or somethin?

Heaven, shmeaven, you'll get there in due time. What's the rush?

:lol:

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24191

Duchifas wrote: John wrote: Quote: So you are slow? Okay,even muslims go to hell,being a muslim is only the first step in a long road.A muslim can kill someone without a right cause and so he has condemned himself to hell forever.

I'm not sure what about what I asked caused you to say that. :?

All I want to know, is where in the Quran it states that a good Muslim will go to Heaven.

What's the unhealthy obsession with heaven? Life on earth is too boring or somethin?

Heaven, shmeaven, you'll get there in due time. What's the rush?

:lol:

Eternity is a long time.

I'm not in a rush....but I give certain subjects their due respect.

Duchifas · Joined: 22 Jun 2004 Posts: 9950

Quote: Eternity is a long time.

I'm not in a rush....but I give certain subjects their due respect.

All right, as you wish. :) Have fun with my cousins here. They are a jolly lot. :lol:

pharaoh · Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:12 pm Post subject:

John wrote: pharaoh wrote: John wrote: Quote: So you are slow? Okay,even muslims go to hell,being a muslim is only the first step in a long road.A muslim can kill someone without a right cause and so he has condemned himself to hell forever.

I'm not sure what about what I asked caused you to say that. :?

All I want to know, is where in the Quran it states that a good Muslim will go to Heaven.

Everywhere.

Then it should be easy. Where?

It is meaningless to search for kind a thing.What do you expect anyway,that people convert to Islam while there is no verse that says they will go to paradise?! :roll:
Go to:
http://www.al-quran.org.uk
And start reading and you will find what you are looking for.