Political Crossfire Forums

[curisz]

I was gonna do this in the Independent HQ, but I've decided to stand in the middle of the lunchroom to say my peace.

It's time to bring some honest debate back to American politics.

Neither the Republicans nor the Democrats "Hate America". Neither do the Greens, Libertarians or Socialists. And everyone knows that.

None of the above are guilty of "treason". And everyone knows that. (except maybe Psholtz, but that's ok, I still think he's a cool guy.)

Every American wants the best for America, and every American has their own ideas as to what "best" means and how to get there. But ultimately we have a lot in common.

Does anybody here really advocate people not having personal responsibility for their actions? Does anybody really believe someone else here advocates that?

Does anybody here really want to see people starving in the street? Does anybody really believe someone else here does?

Does anybody here really want the terrorists to destroy America? Does anybody really believe someone else here does?

Does anybody here really want a police state? Does anybody really believe someone else here does?

Enough. Enough of twisting words and mock indignation, namecalling and smug derision.

But this website is just a reflection of the state of American politics.

America needs politicians who are pragmatic. Who realize that they and their party don't have a monopoly on good ideas. People who are willing to participate in honest debate, listen to the misgivings of others, and work to construct legislation which addresses the broad concerns of many and still is directed toward the effective solving of problems.

America needs politicians who are principled. Who put America ahead of their egos, the party line, and the agendas of potential campaign contributors. Who will enact legislation that is clear, accessible and broadly purposed, rather than "buddy bills", and labyrynthine codes designed to have something for everyone without anyone knowing what the other guy got.

America needs politicians who are progressive. Who don't give in to inertia and knee jerk reactions, who think outside the box and are not afraid to say that a once treasured program has outlived its usefulness, and that it is time for something new.

America needs politicians who are patriotic. Who have real faith in the American people, and in the political process, and who can restore the faith of American people in the political process.

The liberals are not destroying America. The conservatives are not destroying America. Not even the Communists are destroying America.

Partisan unwillingness to consider the opinions and ideas of others is destroying America. Corruption and greed are destroying America. Catering to "the base" is destroying America. Lazy thinking is destroying America. Jaded cynicism about our country, our government and our people is destroying America.

America deserves better than this. Its high time we started demanding it.

[freethinker]

curisz wrote:
America needs politicians who are patriotic. Who have real faith in the American people, and in the political process, and who can restore the faith of American people in the political process.

The liberals are not destroying America. The conservatives are not destroying America. Not even the Communists are destroying America.


I agree that America needs patriots... unfortunately they're hard to find among the political elite today. Even more unfortunately, there are honestly more influential unpatriotic Democrats than unpatriotic Republicans. I've seen little to show that the Democrats have faith in the political process. Take the 2000 and 2004 elections as examples. Why are there recounts? Because there isn't faith in the political process. I have faith in that process, but the politicans don't, because it doesn't suit their purposes to have faith. "We lost so obviously there's something wrong with the system." It's ridiculous logic but present everywhere. As to that last part I beg to differ. This conflict is destroying America. Both sides are destroying America. Not really liberals and conservatives, but rather Democrats and Republicans. The Loyal Opposition is gone. If the "enemy" is in power the government must be corrupt. Obviously since the Democrats didn't win for two presidential elections straight the Constitution (which has worked enormously well for well over 200 years) must need changes.

Perhaps even more crucial, as curisz mentioned, the politicans need to not just have faith in the system, but faith in the citizens. Bills are forced down the voter's throats by using the Ignorant Citizen Method. "The people voted it down, so obviously they were just too stupid to understand the bill, so let's have an awareness campaign and put it on the next ballot." It's ridiculous.

I just wonder if by the time honesty, loyalty, and patriotism comes back to America it will be too late. It's just too bad the only way to provoke that is through death and destruction. People only care when they're affected. It's been too long since Septemeber 11th, and not enough people were affected. I'm afraid it will take more than 5000 deaths on the East Coast to bring patriotism back to America.

[curisz]

freethinker wrote: curisz wrote:
America needs politicians who are patriotic. Who have real faith in the American people, and in the political process, and who can restore the faith of American people in the political process.

The liberals are not destroying America. The conservatives are not destroying America. Not even the Communists are destroying America.


I agree that America needs patriots... unfortunately they're hard to find among the political elite today. Even more unfortunately, there are honestly more influential unpatriotic Democrats than unpatriotic Republicans. I've seen little to show that the Democrats have faith in the political process. Take the 2000 and 2004 elections as examples. Why are there recounts? Because there isn't faith in the political process. I have faith in that process, but the politicans don't, because it doesn't suit their purposes to have faith. "We lost so obviously there's something wrong with the system." It's ridiculous logic but present everywhere. As to that last part I beg to differ. This conflict is destroying America. Both sides are destroying America. Not really liberals and conservatives, but rather Democrats and Republicans. The Loyal Opposition is gone. If the "enemy" is in power the government must be corrupt. Obviously since the Democrats didn't win for two presidential elections straight the Constitution (which has worked enormously well for well over 200 years) must need changes.

Perhaps even more crucial, as curisz mentioned, the politicans need to not just have faith in the system, but faith in the citizens. Bills are forced down the voter's throats by using the Ignorant Citizen Method. "The people voted it down, so obviously they were just too stupid to understand the bill, so let's have an awareness campaign and put it on the next ballot." It's ridiculous.

I just wonder if by the time honesty, loyalty, and patriotism comes back to America it will be too late. It's just too bad the only way to provoke that is through death and destruction. People only care when they're affected. It's been too long since Septemeber 11th, and not enough people were affected. I'm afraid it will take more than 5000 deaths on the East Coast to bring patriotism back to America.

By asserting that Democrats are less patriotic then Republicans, you play right into the whole trap though. Democrats didn't want a recount because they didn't believe the system worked, but because they believed the Republicans tried to manipulate the system, because THEY didn't believe it worked...at least not in their favor.

All that needs to be buried though, if real progress is to be made. Patriotism, at least as i define it, is not "my country wrong or right" but rather "my country, which I want to be the best country it can possibly be, even if I and my campaign contributors don't personally benefit from the policies necessary to accomplish that"

[freethinker]

curisz wrote:
By asserting that Democrats are less patriotic then Republicans, you play right into the whole trap though. Democrats didn't want a recount because they didn't believe the system worked, but because they believed the Republicans tried to manipulate the system, because THEY didn't believe it worked...at least not in their favor.

All that needs to be buried though, if real progress is to be made. Patriotism, at least as i define it, is not "my country wrong or right" but rather "my country, which I want to be the best country it can possibly be, even if I and my campaign contributors don't personally benefit from the policies necessary to accomplish that"

I don't mean to imply Democrats are less patriotic than Republicans. I do mean to imply that the Democrats in the major positions of influence are less patriotic by implying that the Constitution is faulty just because it didn't give them the results they liked. I doubt the Democrat [politicans] truly thought that the Republicans manipulated the system. In fact, they manipulated the system and even then failed. But I agree it does need to be buried. As I mentioned, though, the Loyal Opposition in America is effectively gone. The Opposition (in this case, the Democrats) are effectively undermining the war effort by their consistent attacks on the administration. The only way to beat terrorism (or any threat) is to be united. Terrorists seek to divide because it slows down decisions and leads to infighting. The Republican Party was also a poor Loyal Opposition during the Clinton years. Some of that was for good reasons but a lot of it was just random attacks.

Overall I've become disillusioned with segments of both major parties, especially because of the situation in my homestate of Oregon. Here the legislature is effectively useless. They have managed to be productive on certain things however. For instance, they have managed to completely mismanage the budget. While government employees receive huge pensions, education is so underfunded that various programs at even the high school level are organizing fundraisers (not just sports and music, but science classes). The libraries are also receiving little in the way of funding. The importance placed on education is a joke. Our road maintenence is also quite awful and unemployment is ridiculous because of government regulation and various tax burdens. If the parties would stop bickering and actually put money into the important things things would be much better.

In a way, the problems of the Oregon Legislature are increasingly reminicent of the U.S. Congress, which is constantly in its own deadlocks over trivial issues. What have happened to the days when the parties actually worked together?

[PricklySponge]

Most arent evil. Some misguided, some have succumbed to propoganda, but most have prefectly valid opinons while I have a different perfectly valid opinion. My history teacher explained it best, neither party is neccacarily better than the other, they both have the same goals, just diffrent ways of accomplishing them.

[freethinker]

PricklySponge wrote: Most arent evil. Some misguided, some have succumbed to propoganda, but most have prefectly valid opinons while I have a different perfectly valid opinion. My history teacher explained it best, neither party is neccacarily better than the other, they both have the same goals, just diffrent ways of accomplishing them.

not really. both launch smear campaigns against each other. both bicker over unimportant issues. both have their liberal and conservative side. the difference is ideology. That's why they're different parties.