Political Crossfire Forums

[DarthDuncan]

I personally said "no". I stand up and will always stand up for homosexual persons and their rights. Even if there was evidence saying they were gay/lesbain by choice. But actually in response to some comments, I personally believe there is no "choice" in the matter. For many people being homosexual or bisexual can ruin their lives. They get made fun of and harrassed. A friend of mine was actually killed because he was gay. If it was a choice I don't believe those getting harrassed would continue to be homosexual.

[DarthDuncan]

Protostar wrote: I voted yes. But it also raise an intersting question. If homosexuality was found to have a genetic origin, then it could in time possibly be corrected. So I pose this question only to the homosexuals on the boards:If it became possible to treat homosexuality through gene therapy, would you do it? Would you abandon homosexuality and become a heterosexual like the majority of the population? If not why?

Please don't say "corrected" That means it was wrong to begin with which I don't think it true.

[DarthDuncan]

jimmyz wrote: Iluvguns wrote: JimmyZ-it could be polygenic...although I do agree it is more likely chemical than genetic.

Polygenic or monogenic doesn't matter.In the case of bi-sexuality I suppose both the homosexual and heterosexual genes(if we accept that thesis for this discussion) could be present in the same person and possibly in more than one gene.

I still lean to the chemical cause and effect theory,agreed.

Some people believe that bisexuality is an excuse to not say that they are homosexual. If homosexuality had to do with genes this could either be proved or disproved. As of now I would have to go with everyone else with the polygentics though.

And sorry for the triple post. I just went through and commented on everything I felt needed commenting.

[Aim-64C]

Skeptical Mystic wrote: Tell us how definitive proof of an underlying genetic cause for homosexual orientation would alter your perception of gay people (if at all) and why. Likewise, if it would do nothing to alter your perception, give us the reason for maintaining your current stance on the issue.

We don't need to debate whether or not it is genetic, because there is no definitive proof one way or the other, yet.

Nope - homosexuality is a choice, one that may be influenced by genetic factors, yes - but it is only as decisive of a factor as one wants it to be. Research has proven that therapy can 'permanently' change brain chemistry - more specifically - people can change their own brain chemistry upon their own will - however often require support from others. No drugs were used in these therapy sessions.

Also, people with IDD (Identity Dissasosciative Disorder - multiple personalities) often have different eye prescriptions for different personalities. Many people who meditate often can raise the temperature of their hands - some monks by up to 7 degrees celcius by opening their capilaries in their hands - something extremely hard to do.

We are in more control than we like to think.

It's a choice and always will be - if you say that homosexuality is a genetic trait - then so is a serial killer, dictator, rapist, etc - you can then get people blaming their genes or being destroyed at birth because of "undesired" traits. It's the right of gays and their lawyers to open that can of worms - even though there is no evidence to suggest that homosexuality is DETERMINED by genes. It is known that there is a correlation - however, correlations do NOT - repeat, NOT determine cause and effect. Also, there has been little research done to find these same "shared" genes in 'normal' people - you can show me "shared" genes all day and I couldn't care less until you've shown me a controled experiment that can be repeated or a negative correlation amongst "normal" people for this shared gene.

I am not swayed by frivolous persuits of excuses. Take responsibility for yourself - if you're gay - I don't care, just understand that I am not, nor will I ever be - and that I respect your choice as a choice and that it has consequences socially - don't cry at me if Joe Bloe gets annoyed with your presence, I can't change him/her.

[Jay2014]

it would not change my attitude towords homosexuals, but it would alter my perception of homosexuality. i am a sociology major, i tend to put very little faith in the ability of genes to cause such things. i had a psych prof. that thought that being a racist or liking mexican foods were genetic, i find this rediculous. i think most everything is shaped by early childhood socialization, (although, to be totally accurate, i believe we have genetic tendancies, i just dont think they are written in stone.

keep in mind, this view does not mean by any strech of the imagination i think it is a choice. i think that that view can only be harbored by the ignorant incapable of self-relection to any meaningful degree.

i never woke up and said "i think ill be heterosexual" and quite frankly, i doubt i could attain a sexual attraction for men, despite whatever efforts i may imploy.

[Jay2014]

ieatfood wrote: Homosexuals always have a choice.

THey can choose not to show their homosexuality.

YOu may think it wrong for people to advocate homosexuals inhibit their own urges. But that doesn't change the fact that acting on these urges is a choice nonetheless.

If we found a genetic link to pedophiles, would that make it ok?

What if we found that a gene made it more likely that a person is a rapist. would that change anyone's view on rape? I think not.


btw, i have nothing against homosexuality
i think people should be free to do whatever they want
i am just pointing out that it wont change anyone's opinion.

the comparison to pedophila and rape is completely off target. both crimes have victims, by either physical force or mental immaturity. homosexuality between consenting adults has no victim. as far as our attitudes, i nevertheless hope we would support treatment for rapists and pedophiles in combination with or as opposed to punitive punishments.

say we find one gene that automatically makes a person a rapist, does that make it ok? no, of course not, but things people have no control over should be treated rather than punished. at the current, i support both actions.

[ET Brit]

Skeptical Mystic wrote: Tell us how definitive proof of an underlying genetic cause for homosexual orientation would alter your perception of gay people (if at all) and why. Likewise, if it would do nothing to alter your perception, give us the reason for maintaining your current stance on the issue.

We don't need to debate whether or not it is genetic, because there is no definitive proof one way or the other, yet.

I voted 'no' because I believe it to be true without having definitive proof. However, I am now beginning to wonder if there is an underlying genetic cause for some people to be so close minded.

[F'losrix]

Aim-64C wrote: Nope - homosexuality is a choice, one that may be influenced by genetic factors, yes - but it is only as decisive of a factor as one wants it to be.
So you believe that some people want to be homosexual?

Quote: Research has proven that therapy can 'permanently' change brain chemistry - more specifically - people can change their own brain chemistry upon their own will - however often require support from others. No drugs were used in these therapy sessions.
Any research to show the success/failure rate of these 'therapies'? Any research been done with regard to recidivism?

Quote: Also, people with IDD (Identity Dissasosciative Disorder - multiple personalities) often have different eye prescriptions for different personalities. Many people who meditate often can raise the temperature of their hands - some monks by up to 7 degrees celcius by opening their capilaries in their hands - something extremely hard to do.
You're speaking of extremely unusual circumstances here. While the brain can have powerful physical effects, a person with IDD has little to no conscious control over these personality shifts. As for the example of meditation, it's unreasonable to expect that people will put themselves in a 24/7/365 state of meditation to change their sexual orientation.

Quote: We are in more control than we like to think.
But not as in control as you would seem to suggest.

Quote: It's a choice and always will be - if you say that homosexuality is a genetic trait - then so is a serial killer, dictator, rapist, etc - you can then get people blaming their genes or being destroyed at birth because of "undesired" traits. It's the right of gays and their lawyers to open that can of worms - even though there is no evidence to suggest that homosexuality is DETERMINED by genes. It is known that there is a correlation - however, correlations do NOT - repeat, NOT determine cause and effect. Also, there has been little research done to find these same "shared" genes in 'normal' people - you can show me "shared" genes all day and I couldn't care less until you've shown me a controled experiment that can be repeated or a negative correlation amongst "normal" people for this shared gene.
Research in this area is admittedly incomplete. I have made no claim to the contrary and have in fact tried to emphasize this fact in other threads when the issue has been debated.

You equate homosexuality with serial killers and rapists because you apparently view it as a bad thing - something that needs to be fixed. I disagree, and think it's in fact quite heinous for you to link these things. As someone else has pointed out, genetics shouldn't be an excuse for behavior, but should instead be viewed as one piece of the puzzle as we try to determine the best course of action in curtailing behaviour that has a demonstrably negative impact by depriving others of some right. Homosexuality does not fall into this category of behavior.

Quote: I am not swayed by frivolous persuits of excuses. Take responsibility for yourself - if you're gay - I don't care, just understand that I am not, nor will I ever be - and that I respect your choice as a choice and that it has consequences socially - don't cry at me if Joe Bloe gets annoyed with your presence, I can't change him/her.
The way you employ the word 'choice' here implies a conscious act of deciding to have a specific sexual orientation. While one may consciously choose whether or not to pursue homosexual behavior, there is no conscious decision made to have the homosexual orientation that drives this behavior.

Genetics alone probably doesn't determine sexual orientation. It is more likely a complex interaction of genetically driven biological factors and environmental stimuli that lead a person to develop subconscious preferences that build upon each other, become more or less fixed, and are so strong that they cannot be easily altered. For example, a person doesn't consciously choose to hate pickles. While we can make an argument for that being a conditioned reaction, it probably isn't entirely so - and certainly not a decision they consciously made. We may or may not have some success in teaching them to tolerate pickles, but there will probably be very few who can be convinced that they actually like them after having had such a strong distaste for them for a long period of time.

Homosexual orientation may operate in a similar fashion, but because it cuts across multiple senses and emotions it is hard to imagine that it could be easily changed or 'unlearned' - it is much stronger and more deeply rooted than any psychological connection we have with the sense of taste I used in the above example of people hating pickles.

Your use of the word 'choice' to describe such a thing is purposely deceptive and little more than a way to disguise your own bias and prejudice on this issue.

[Aim-64C]

It's a choice homosexuals make - be it one that they are 100% aware of or not. Environmental factors influence this, as well as social experience. There are a good number of people who are afraid of the opposite sex in youth, and then when puberty comes, their shyness keeps them from ever taking interest. Some come from abusive or stressful childhoods, even having a very negative relationship with their mother/father. There are others that just "give up" on the opposite sex and become homosexual and "find themselves."

www.forensic-psych.com/articles/artNYTTalkTherapy8.27.022.html

www.socialanxietyinstitute.org/chemical.html

You underweigh the effect the mind has on the body. Scars, bruises, ulcers (production of body elements), etc - all can be caused by the mind in situations of stress. Ever woken up with a scar or a bruise that you cannot figure out how you got, and you couldn't have hit it on something in your sleep, and can't place an event that day, earlier? An intense dream in delta, or an early REM stage could have had such an influence, and you would not remember that dream.

We are in LOTS of control, especially if you're talking about the collective human conscience. One day we will discover what we once lost - the power to manipulate the environment and to bend the "rules" of space, time, chemistry, physics, etc. The universe operates on a set of rules - however, it is not limited to those rules - and that opens the door to anything. For example:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychokinesis

I'd like to thank you for pointing that out - I have learned something today and have been given some additional insight into our universe.

Take, for instance, our world - inhabited by inteligent beings capable of comprehending the world..... now - would this world exist without us, or without something capable of observing it? Absolutely not, because nothing can exist without something to observe it on some level. Quantum mechanics works on the premise that anything is, ultimately, possible because of "quanta" and their eradic movements, causing fluxuations in mater. According to the quantum theory - it is possible you may walk across the street some day, but instead, dematerialize, rematerialize on Mars, and then rematerialize on the other side of the street. If you take into effect that our brains emitt energy in radio form - or if you beleive in "souls" - then it is quite possible that these energies could affect quanta and, in effect, cause anything we currently see on the face of the planet - if we're dealing with enough energy and enough control - you could even put whole galaxies together.

I "equate" homosexuality with serial killers and rapists because it is an unfavorable personality trait that carries more wieght than saying a "cheerful" person. I wasn't equating homosexuality with those behaviors - merely showing that when you say that genetics causes something it can precipitate into areas you never even thought would be affected.

Does a serial killer have a choice? If a person is raised in the worst possible environment, has the genetics for, and is even trained to be a hostile person - do they still have a choice as to whether or not to kill someone? How is any behavior, then, different? I choose to be heterosexual - at some point I could choose to be gay - although I don't see that happening in my lifetime because the closest friends I have are all girls, spare 2.

My use of the word choice is deliberately to make a point. I hold no bias or malace or ill feelings towards homosexuals, but be careful in determining others' levels of bias, else your own bias and prejudgement be shown.

[Gryff1nd0r]

It wouldn't alter my view since I already think that there is either a genetic or chemical cause.

That doesn't mean that homosexuality is not a choice.

I regards to bisexuality, I think that there is a broad range of sexual preferences, with many people strongly favoring one sex, while others fall somewhere in the middle. Perhaps many people who are actually bisexual appear to be straight because they only act on their "straight feelings", since that is the social norm, but there are more "in-betweens" out there than we know.

[Jay2014]

thegriffinator13 wrote: It wouldn't alter my view since I already think that there is either a genetic or chemical cause.

That doesn't mean that homosexuality is not a choice.

I regards to bisexuality, I think that there is a broad range of sexual preferences, with many people strongly favoring one sex, while others fall somewhere in the middle. Perhaps many people who are actually bisexual appear to be straight because they only act on their "straight feelings", since that is the social norm, but there are more "in-betweens" out there than we know.

thats what kinsey found. i dont know the numbers, but is scale was , i think 1-7, 1 being purely heterosexual, and 7 being purley homosexual, and found a large segment of us fit in between 2 and 6

[F'losrix]

Aim-64C wrote: It's a choice homosexuals make - be it one that they are 100% aware of or not.
But when people talk about choice in reference to homosexuality, they mean a conscious decision to have an homosexual orientation and carry that forward into behavior. This idea of it being a conscious decision is then used as an argument to blame homosexuals for being that way.

I don't care how many links you post, you aren't going to convince me that it's a conscious choice - my experience and that reported by most other gay people informs me otherwise.

Quote: Environmental factors influence this, as well as social experience. There are a good number of people who are afraid of the opposite sex in youth, and then when puberty comes, their shyness keeps them from ever taking interest. Some come from abusive or stressful childhoods, even having a very negative relationship with their mother/father. There are others that just "give up" on the opposite sex and become homosexual and "find themselves."
Theories, none of them terribly credible.

Quote: www.forensic-psych.com/articles/artNYTTalkTherapy8.27.022.html

www.socialanxietyinstitute.org/chemical.html
Social anxiety doesn't cause homosexuality. There are plenty of gay people who don't suffer from this disorder.

Quote: You underweigh the effect the mind has on the body.
I disagree. As I said before, you're using the fact that the subconscious mind can work physical effects upon the body to support an argument that a gay person should be able to change their sexuality by exercising conscious control over the subconscious. I don't believe it's possible for the average gay person do that to the extent that would be required for it to ever become an accepted form of 'therapy'.

And it begs the question of why they should be forced to change anyway. Just to satisfy the egos of people who don't like homosexuality? Sorry, but I frankly don't think they're worthy of the effort.

Quote: I "equate" homosexuality with serial killers and rapists because it is an unfavorable personality trait that carries more wieght than saying a "cheerful" person.
Can I get a big yell of B-I-A-S from our audience? You view it as an unfavorable personality trait. I don't. What evidence will you present to argue your position, I wonder? The weight of majority opinion?

Quote: I wasn't equating homosexuality with those behaviors - merely showing that when you say that genetics causes something it can precipitate into areas you never even thought would be affected.
You aren't telling me anything that I don't already know and understand. Genetics is only one piece of the puzzle. It isn't an excuse for anything and I've never said that it was. You have to also examine whether the resultant behavior compromises the rights of others. Homosexuality doesn't, rape & murder do.

Quote: Does a serial killer have a choice? If a person is raised in the worst possible environment, has the genetics for, and is even trained to be a hostile person - do they still have a choice as to whether or not to kill someone? How is any behavior, then, different? I choose to be heterosexual - at some point I could choose to be gay - although I don't see that happening in my lifetime because the closest friends I have are all girls, spare 2.
And you would demand that homosexuals choose heterosexual behavior, in spite of the fact that it seems as unnatural to them as choosing homosexual behavior would be for you? Do you view that as reasonable? I don't.

Quote: My use of the word choice is deliberately to make a point. I hold no bias or malace or ill feelings towards homosexuals, but be careful in determining others' levels of bias, else your own bias and prejudgement be shown.
You have shown that you hold a bias against them, since you view it as an 'unfavorable personality trait'.

Be careful what you argue, lest I beat you over the head with your own words.

[the truth]

I cant stand when people compare blacks to homosexuals. It is not the same. Until they find the "gay gene" you can't prove that it is not a choice. If they do however find that gene I will admit that you were treated unjustly just as my ancestors but to compare the two (right now without evidence) is a slap in a face to my history. Ofcourse gay people deserve human rights but you can't say you were born this way as I can with my skin color. Plenty of gay people have turned straight for some reason or another just as straight people have turned gay. The more gay people there are to convince outkasts they are gay, the more gay people there will be. Consider the amount of gay people in America to that of Europe. The amount of gay people in Africa compared to America. The places it is less accepted will result in less gay people. Its a fact.

Skeptical Mystic, you should just admit you choose to be gay so people like me will actually support your right to choose whatever you want to do. It is America and I support the American ideal no matter how much i disagree with your choices.

As far as being a pedophile, as wrong as it seems, it is not illegal. Sleeping with kids is illegal but liking little kids is not. So comparing pedophiles to gay people is somewhat just. It just so happens that the days of marrying 12 year old girls is long gone (gladly), and the days of marrying the same sex is here. They choose to act on their pedophilla just as you choose to act on your homosexuality.

[Protostar]

the truth wrote: I cant stand when people compare blacks to homosexuals. It is not the same. Until they find the "gay gene" you can't prove that it is not a choice. If they do however find that gene I will admit that you were treated unjustly just as my ancestors but to compare the two (right now without evidence) is a slap in a face to my history. Ofcourse gay people deserve human rights but you can't say you were born this way as I can with my skin color. Plenty of gay people have turned straight for some reason or another just as straight people have turned gay. The more gay people there are to convince outkasts they are gay, the more gay people there will be. Consider the amount of gay people in America to that of Europe. The amount of gay people in Africa compared to America. The places it is less accepted will result in less gay people. Its a fact.

Skeptical Mystic, you should just admit you choose to be gay so people like me will actually support your right to choose whatever you want to do. It is America and I support the American ideal no matter how much i disagree with your choices.

As far as being a pedophile, as wrong as it seems, it is not illegal. Sleeping with kids is illegal but liking little kids is not. So comparing pedophiles to gay people is somewhat just. It just so happens that the days of marrying 12 year old girls is long gone (gladly), and the days of marrying the same sex is here. They choose to act on their pedophilla just as you choose to act on your homosexuality.

As a fellow African American, I agree completely with what you're saying but expect to be flamed to death by the homosexuals and the homosexual sympathizers. They get their panites in a wad when anyone "dares" question their way of life.

[Jay2014]

the truth wrote: I cant stand when people compare blacks to homosexuals. It is not the same. Until they find the "gay gene" you can't prove that it is not a choice. If they do however find that gene I will admit that you were treated unjustly just as my ancestors but to compare the two (right now without evidence) is a slap in a face to my history. Ofcourse gay people deserve human rights but you can't say you were born this way as I can with my skin color. Plenty of gay people have turned straight for some reason or another just as straight people have turned gay. The more gay people there are to convince outkasts they are gay, the more gay people there will be. Consider the amount of gay people in America to that of Europe. The amount of gay people in Africa compared to America. The places it is less accepted will result in less gay people. Its a fact.

Skeptical Mystic, you should just admit you choose to be gay so people like me will actually support your right to choose whatever you want to do. It is America and I support the American ideal no matter how much i disagree with your choices.

As far as being a pedophile, as wrong as it seems, it is not illegal. Sleeping with kids is illegal but liking little kids is not. So comparing pedophiles to gay people is somewhat just. It just so happens that the days of marrying 12 year old girls is long gone (gladly), and the days of marrying the same sex is here. They choose to act on their pedophilla just as you choose to act on your homosexuality.

i never chose to be straight, and i doubt i could choose to become gay if i wanted to.

[F'losrix]

the truth wrote: I cant stand when people compare blacks to homosexuals. It is not the same. Until they find the "gay gene" you can't prove that it is not a choice. If they do however find that gene I will admit that you were treated unjustly just as my ancestors but to compare the two (right now without evidence) is a slap in a face to my history. Ofcourse gay people deserve human rights but you can't say you were born this way as I can with my skin color.
What exactly are you referring to? Something I said? Because I generally don't like to draw comparisons between the two. Just because I view something as having a genetic/biological factor doesn't mean I think it's determined the same way that skin color is.


Quote: Plenty of gay people have turned straight for some reason or another just as straight people have turned gay.
bulls**t. They might alter their behavior, but no one can change their actual orientation. Anyone who claims they've done otherwise is a f***ing liar.

Quote: The more gay people there are to convince outkasts they are gay, the more gay people there will be.
That old song? More lies. Gay people don't recruit. [begin sarcasm]I wish it did work that way - we could stand to increase our numbers considerably. Unfortunately we have to rely on whatever combination of genetic/biology factors & environmental influences make people gay. If someone ever figures out a way to duplicate that, look out world![sarcasm off]

Quote: Consider the amount of gay people in America to that of Europe. The amount of gay people in Africa compared to America. The places it is less accepted will result in less gay people. Its a fact.
The only thing factual about that statement is that in some places where it's less accepted, they actually reduce the number of gay people by killing them. I believe you're confusing the number of people who are open about their sexuality with the number who actually have a homosexual orientation in a given region. Those numbers can be drastically different where homosexuality has severe punishments. It doesn't mean fewer gay people, just fewer who are willing to let it be known and/or dare to act upon it.

Quote: Skeptical Mystic, you should just admit you choose to be gay so people like me will actually support your right to choose whatever you want to do. It is America and I support the American ideal no matter how much i disagree with your choices.
Why should I admit to something that isn't true? And I don't believe you anyway.

Quote: As far as being a pedophile, as wrong as it seems, it is not illegal. Sleeping with kids is illegal but liking little kids is not. So comparing pedophiles to gay people is somewhat just. It just so happens that the days of marrying 12 year old girls is long gone (gladly), and the days of marrying the same sex is here. They choose to act on their pedophilla just as you choose to act on your homosexuality.
That doesn't mean the two things are comparable. Pedophilia isn't a sexual orientation; it would be better described as an extreme fetish. When a pedophile acts on those desires, they cause objectively observable & direct harm to a child. You cannot make such an argument with regard to homosexual behavior between consenting adults.

I see right through your attempt to compare pedolphilia and homosexuality - it's nothing more than a way for you to imply that homosexuals are evil without having to come right out and say it. I believe you can guess what I think you should do with that argument.

[F'losrix]

Protostar wrote: As a fellow African American, I agree completely with what you're saying but expect to be flamed to death by the homosexuals and the homosexual sympathizers. They get their panites in a wad when anyone "dares" question their way of life.
No, we just get really pissed off at people who consistently make insulting statements about our sexual orientation, such as the above implying that we all wear undergarments intended for a different gender.

Does anything ever come out of your mouth that isn't offensive? You might want to consult with a professional to see if they can help you discover why you act out in this way.

[Protostar]

Skeptical Mystic wrote: No, we just get really pissed off at people who consistently make insulting statements about our sexual orientation, such as the above implying that we all wear undergarments intended for a different gender.

The statement was meant to show how homosexuals get upset when you disagree with their lifestyle choices. The statement could be applied to anyone (Liberals getting their panties in a wad, etc.)

Quote: Does anything ever come out of your mouth that isn't offensive? You might want to consult with a professional to see if they can help you discover why you act out in this way.

People are usually offended when they know their point of view is wrong.
Something for you to think about.

[F'losrix]

Protostar wrote: The statement was meant to show how homosexuals get upset when you disagree with their lifestyle choices.
A 'lifestyle choice' would be something more along the lines of whether to settle down in a monogamous relationship versus screwing every Tom, Dick & Harry that comes along. Having a homosexual orientation isn't a 'lifestyle choice' because...

1) One doesn't choose to have homosexual feelings

2) Feelings aren't actions, and the word 'lifestyle' means a way of living, implying some sort of action.

We get upset when (expletive in the plural deleted) like you make it their goal in life to malign us because they don't have the intelligence to grasp very basic concepts that separate orientation from behavior.

Did I choose to partner with a person of the same sex? Yes. Is the orientation that drove that decision a choice? No.

I can't put it any simpler for you than that. If you still don't get it, then you're beyond help and not worth any more of my energy.

Quote: People are usually offended when they know their point of view is wrong.
That has to be one of the most idiotic assertions I've ever seen. (reaches for ignore button - Congrats, by the way. You're only the second person I've been forced to used this feature on.)

[Aim-64C]

My, my... Mystic has a temper - and then the best way to fuel anxiety is to say "calm down" - so I will just tell you to take deep, slow breaths and to contrate on whatever images, or lack there of, come to you when your eyes are closed. Or you could pace and talk to yourself, like I do - pretend as if you're talking to people like they are there.

Quote: bulls**t. They might alter their behavior, but no one can change their actual orientation. Anyone who claims they've done otherwise is a f***ing liar.

So.... there is a difference between behavior and orientation? We behave based on an orientation - I realize you're angry and thus more suceptable to saying things without actually thinking - so I won't come down too hard on you.

Quote: we could stand to increase our numbers considerably. Unfortunately we have to rely on whatever combination of genetic/biology factors & environmental influences make people gay.

That doesn't help your arguement at all...... In all honesty it makes you look like a bassackwards individual who puts his own views and ambitions ahead of everyone else. What you basically said is "I would like to see the end of humans." Because unless some surgical proceedure has come about that has not been revealed - men cannot make babbies with men and women cannot make babbies with women..... it just doesn't work quite right....

You don't need to shoot yourself in the foot for us, I'm really not even trying as it is.

Quote: www.forensic-psych.com/articles/artNYTTalkTherapy8.27.022.html

www.socialanxietyinstitute.org/chemical.html

Social anxiety doesn't cause homosexuality. There are plenty of gay people who don't suffer from this disorder.

Okay - you failed to understand that... The research is that when we learn our brain structure and chemistry changes - and through processes, we can alter our brain chemistry to eliminate disorders without the use of drug therapy (which is not permanent and often leads to tolerances and the drug loses effect). I was applying that to a similar concept - our preferences - we can change our prefferences, we can change our brain structure for it to do what we need it to do. For instance - in a way, you "learn" to be homosexual partially based on your choice of who you socialize with.

Oy... okay - we need to work on your reading comprehension, SERIOUSLY! When I said: "I "equate" homosexuality with serial killers and rapists because it is an unfavorable personality trait that carries more wieght than saying a "cheerful" person." I was saying that I tied homosexuality to those "unfavorable behaviors" because those "unfavorable behaviors" carry more weight - it was merely for how our brains process stuff - not that I am attacking homosexuality.

Try not to be a gay Hitler, okay - you don't need to propagate the world with your "superior" 'orientation'. There is a difference between equality and special rights - you're no more important or less important than me, or my brothers, or my friends, mom, dad, and others I don't even know exist. Around here - squeaky wheels don't get oil - they get a block of C-5 and blown sky-high.