Political Crossfire Forums

BigBrother · Joined: 15 Dec 2004 Posts: 37

Sure, we can say we're honest, but do we have the record to back up our statement? We constantly hide behind our excuse of "national security" and never tell anything! Yes, certain things are worthy of the excuse, but not every single thing can be made confidential. What are we, a nation of Nixons?

thundertaker · Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 12:01 pm Post subject:

No, but then, what country isn't?

Rilzic · Joined: 22 May 2005 Posts: 385 Location: Alb, NM, USA

thundertaker wrote: No, but then, what country isn't?

yep! it is a loaded question. every country out there is rules by some form of politicans which are liars. democracies are just better because we made a politican a job and a lifestyle. we have trained out politicans with elections and such. in other countries they just need to prevent revolt more of a might makes right. where we tell half truths to make right.

no country is truthful it is against basic national security

IronBrigadeMike (IBM) · Joined: 08 May 2005 Posts: 6007 Location: VA

thundertaker wrote: No, but then, what country isn't?

Exactly. If all things in the world tasted like your favorite treat, nothing would taste good. If all countries are not honest, who is bad? Who is good?

The_Right_Honourable · Joined: 31 Jan 2005 Posts: 682 Location: UK (mostly)

Eh? Everyone nation 'lies' to some extend.

Americas problem often seems to be that what they consider the truth isnt always the same for everyone else. Its not about black and white definetions but points of view.

One mans terrorist is another man freedom fighter and all that...

YourPlace · Joined: 09 Mar 2005 Posts: 315 Location: Midwest

About as honest as other countries are to us......

YourPlace · Joined: 09 Mar 2005 Posts: 315 Location: Midwest

The_Right_Honourable wrote: One mans terrorist is another man freedom fighter and all that...

Were the traine bombers in SPain freedom fighters or terrorist?

The_Right_Honourable · Joined: 31 Jan 2005 Posts: 682 Location: UK (mostly)

YourPlace wrote: The_Right_Honourable wrote: One mans terrorist is another man freedom fighter and all that...

Were the traine bombers in SPain freedom fighters or terrorist?

You need me to tell you? But to many people they are freedom fighters. And America doesnt understand that people have different points of view.

maxtsu · Joined: 03 Mar 2004 Posts: 1848 Location: European Union

YourPlace wrote: The_Right_Honourable wrote: One mans terrorist is another man freedom fighter and all that...

Were the traine bombers in SPain freedom fighters or terrorist?
Were the French Resistance in WW2 terrorists or freedom fighters?
Were the German SS an army unit or terrorists in WW2?

You can see the obvious point I am making here.

Alexander The Great · Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 11:04 am Post subject:

Well, most of the time the USA was honest to Israel.

But you think it's no honest....

najacor · Joined: 30 Apr 2005 Posts: 26

To be honest, United States is the compilation of Machiavellist's thought.

Alexander The Great · Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 6:21 am Post subject:

So, if the US is as Machiavelli, Machiavelli was a great guy, and I know who he's.

thundertaker · Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 7:55 am Post subject:

Alexander The Great wrote: So, if the US is as Machiavelli, Machiavelli was a great guy, and I know who he's.

You regard cynicism as a sign of greatness?

Alexander The Great · Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 8:05 am Post subject:

thundertaker wrote: Alexander The Great wrote: So, if the US is as Machiavelli, Machiavelli was a great guy, and I know who he's.

You regard cynicism as a sign of greatness?

No, but Cynic has nothing to do with it.
Machiavelli had done other things but being cynic...

Don Quixote · Joined: 24 May 2005 Posts: 1462 Location: Lisbon

thundertaker wrote: No, but then, what country isn't? Good Point

Margo · Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 2:38 pm Post subject:

The_Right_Honourable wrote: YourPlace wrote: The_Right_Honourable wrote: One mans terrorist is another man freedom fighter and all that...

Were the traine bombers in SPain freedom fighters or terrorist?

You need me to tell you? But to many people they are freedom fighters. And America doesnt understand that people have different points of view.

I disagree.. America DOES understand the other differing points of view. We understand that when a freedom fighter's POV influences him to kill us, he becomes a terrorist in our collective mind. We know our enemies inside and out. We study them, examine them, dissect them to see what makes them tick.

MoscowMatt · Joined: 16 Sep 2005 Posts: 1458 Location: UK / Hungary

Firstly to answer the is America honest question no it isn't!! But it's nothing new. Take 1956 for example and the Hungarian uprising when America promised the Hungarians help in their revolt against Soviet rule. Of course no help ever came and many died as a result.

Secondly the terrorist or freedom fighter debate. To my mind freedom fighters target the military forces occupying their country i.e the French resistence in the war. Terrorists on the other hand are indiscriminate in who they attack. To try and call the likes of Al'Qaeda freedom fighters is some kind of joke. Remember 9/11 happened before Iraq, before any supposed illegal war/occupation!

Margo · Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 12:08 pm Post subject:

MoscowMatt wrote: Firstly to answer the is America honest question no it isn't!! But it's nothing new. Take 1956 for example and the Hungarian uprising when America promised the Hungarians help in their revolt against Soviet rule. Of course no help ever came and many died as a result.

Secondly the terrorist or freedom fighter debate. To my mind freedom fighters target the military forces occupying their country i.e the French resistence in the war. Terrorists on the other hand are indiscriminate in who they attack. To try and call the likes of Al'Qaeda freedom fighters is some kind of joke. Remember 9/11 happened before Iraq, before any supposed illegal war/occupation!

1956? You are going to judge the United States of today on something that happened in 1956?

marxistrevolutionary · Joined: 30 Sep 2005 Posts: 26 Location: oregon

he is not judging but merely providing an imperical example, it is merely an example and by nitpicking it you fail to see his overreaching point and still fail to adress it. americas is dishonest, and nto jsut to other nations but to it's own civilians as well. what kind of democracy allows it's elected leaders the ability to lie to it's citizens that elected the officials there in the first place? the term civil servant comes to mind, many people foorget that the government is here to serve us not the other way around. if we can claim that all governments are dishonest as an excuse to not be hoenst ourself, than this is an argument that jsut does not hold water, it is the duty of man to strive to make the world a better palce for his having lived regardless of the example set by his fellow man and this should apply to our government as well.

Margo · Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 12:31 pm Post subject:

marxistrevolutionary wrote: he is not judging but merely providing an imperical example, it is merely an example and by nitpicking it you fail to see his overreaching point and still fail to adress it. americas is dishonest, and nto jsut to other nations but to it's own civilians as well. what kind of democracy allows it's elected leaders the ability to lie to it's citizens that elected the officials there in the first place? the term civil servant comes to mind, many people foorget that the government is here to serve us not the other way around. if we can claim that all governments are dishonest as an excuse to not be hoenst ourself, than this is an argument that jsut does not hold water, it is the duty of man to strive to make the world a better palce for his having lived regardless of the example set by his fellow man and this should apply to our government as well.

I think you have your definitions mixed up, big guy. If this were an example of imperiailsm, it would then be suggestive of the US actively nation building in Hungary during 1956, there is quite a differance I would say between backing a government and actual establishment of an empire or soverign rule. I only nitpick when people don't know what they are talking about...So, nice try anyway. Quote: what kind of democracy allows it's elected leaders the ability to lie to it's citizens that elected the officials there in the first place?
As for your suggesting that our democracy should be responsible for individual human behaviors, (which thankfully it is not) you are forgetting that while our system is not perfect (no one says it is) we at least have a checks and balance system called the judicial branch to provide a chance to determine guilt or innoncence in a court of law. I agree with you about elected officials shouldn't lie to the public but unfortunatley they are presenting themselves only within the constraints of a political party and platform, not a psychological profile. Perhaps if we all had a crystal ball? But in our system, until proven guilty, we assume innoncence. (again, our system is not perfect but it's better than anything else out there in the world)