Political Crossfire Forums

[Robin Hood]

Quote: Why not terrorfascists?

Terrorism is a method, not an ideology.

Quote: Islam means peace.

Doesn't it mean something closer to submission, as in 'be at peace'.

Quote: Fascism is evil.

Sure and what happens when you mix and evil ideology with any other ideology...you still get an evil ideology.

Quote: Why integrate the two when they both don't make sense when combined?

They may not make sense, but it's followers aren't rational. Fascism doesn't make sense, anyway.

Quote: Also, why don't you head over to the Middle Eastern politics forums and look for my thread?

I will, thanks.

Islamofascism is a term because their ideology is a fusion of the two. THeir are certainly influenced by, or at least use, Islam. Many Muslims cheered when the Twin Towers fell, and it's only self-declared Muslims who are in Al Qaeda and affiliated groups.

This does not mean that Islam itself is evil, and it certainly doesn't mean that all Muslims are evil, or anything close to it. It's not me you should be criticising but people like OBL for bastardizing your religion.

[Saracen]

True, terrorism is a method.

However, "Islamofascism" is nothing like Islam. You can not integrate a peaceful religion with an evil ideology. Obviously, that's what the terrorists just did. Sadly, many people view Islam based only on their actions, not the beliefs of Islam. Thank you for considering that point in that last paragraph.

And remember what I told you about a one-to-many correspondence in Arabic-to-English translation? Islam does mean peace as much as it means submission.

And about the twin tower incident, no one at my locale that I know of praised the attacks on the WTC in New York. My locale back in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia (I'm now studying at the University of Toronto), are predominantly Muslim, should you ask me if they were otherwise. I, too, condemn the mass killing of individuals like this.

And yes, Osama Bin Laden (nice abbrev by the way. What do u guys call Bush? GWB?) is evil. He is not, however, Muslim by any standards for carrying out terrorist attacks, especially on the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania that killed dozens of innocents. I hate OBL as much as you do; he is giving Islam a bad name.

Those who cheered when the towers fell did it out of their extreme hate of America. I'm sure that there are non-Arabs AND non-Muslims out there who feel the same way about America and probably went wild with excitement about it. You never know. I for one didn't. Read on...

I don't hate America: the actions of the government do not reflect the beliefs of the American people in general. I just hate it's evil government for what they're doing to places like Iraq, Afghanistan and so forth...

P.S. I'm interested in your signature, about federal spending, and it sounds convincing. Can u give me a link?

[Robin Hood]

Quote: My locale back in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia

It's pretty liberal for Saudi Arabia, but you of all people on this forum should realise what being ruled by (self-declared) 'experts' on Islam is like. The Muttawa, for instance: http://muttawa.blogspot.com/

Quote: What do u guys call Bush? GWB?

Yeah it's easier.

Quote: I'm sure that there are non-Arabs AND non-Muslims out there who feel the same way about America and probably went wild with excitement about it. You never know.

I do know. Most of the hardened socialists could barely contain their glee.

Quote: P.S. I'm interested in your signature, about federal spending, and it sounds convincing. Can u give me a link?

Which part? The text? It's from a US libertarian judge, it's just a quote but it's general viewpoint is shared by www.minaret.org and www.reason.com - a little like the Egyption Wafd party.

[Saracen]

The Muttawas have been ruled out already. The last time I was in Saudi Arabia, they were in minimal numbers. A lot of them were radicals, I can tell you that. But some of them were victims of the globalising Saudi teenage population.

I know of INCIDENTS that involved Muttawas and such. We can talk about such things in ANOTHER forum.

Btw, Muttawas are NOT "experts" on Islam. The real experts on Islam are the imams and sheiks who interpret the teachings of the Koran and Hadith (sayings of the Prophet Muhammad, PBUH), and explain how they can be applied to our daily lives.

[EugenicHegemony]

Moath wrote: I think you misunderstand the use of that term. It doesn't imply that all Islam is fascist but that there is a hybrid of the two. By the way, it would be much easier for us if you provided a link.

Did I say that Islamofascism means that Islam is fascist? I meant that Islamofascists shouldn't be called that. Why not terrorfascists? Islam means peace. Fascism is evil. Why integrate the two when they both don't make sense when combined?Also, why don't you head over to the Middle Eastern politics forums and look for my thread? The one called "What's all this nonsense about Islamofascism"?

Either is absurd. Fascism is the merger of state and private power. It has nothing to do with Islamic terrorists.
http://www.politicalcrossfire.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=40772&highlight=

[Robin Hood]

Quote: The Muttawas have been ruled out already.

But they haven't. Is it not common for an imam in Saudi Arabia to insult the Jews, or cross idolaters? Sorry not just insult, but call for the death of those people. If you think that the problems in the house of Islam are small, then you're tricking yourself. In England we have a silly policy of providing subsidies to students at university because they're Muslim. Now this is dumb as it's unequal treatement; but imagine if the Saudi government did that with Jews in Arabia!!!! That's the difference.

These people (Muttawas and their ilk) may not be 'true' Muslims, but they reckon they're the most devout, and they're certainly the most vocal. If I criticise aspects of Islam, then you attack me and believe I'm prejudiced. Sure I'm not Muslim but that does not mean that I can't criticise people's ideas. I judge the ideas on the merits of the ideas.

The fact is that tolerance is not widespread in the house of Islam, nor is liberty. This needs attention, and open discussion.


Quote: But some of them were victims of the globalising Saudi teenage population.

I'm not sure what thios means

[Saracen]

But they haven't. Is it not common for an imam in Saudi Arabia to insult the Jews, or cross idolaters? Sorry not just insult, but call for the death of those people. If you think that the problems in the house of Islam are small, then you're tricking yourself. In England we have a silly policy of providing subsidies to students at university because they're Muslim. Now this is dumb as it's unequal treatement; but imagine if the Saudi government did that with Jews in Arabia!!!! That's the difference.

Sadly, yes. This is an issue that needs to be addressed. I disagree with the synonymous linkage many of these Saudi imams make between Jews and Zionists. They do not mean the Jews as a whole; they really intend the Zionists who have taken over the Palestinian lands. The problems in the house of Islam are not small, largely due to outside intervention from many anti-Islamic groups (which 100% of the time do not base their opinions on real interpretations and Islamic doctrine) and yes, even inside the house of Islam (imams talking this and that, as you have mentioned). I do not understand why someone would call the deaths of people who have spoken more wisdom than ill insults ( Jews = Zionists in their opinion). And what do u exactly mean by idolater?

These people (Muttawas and their ilk) may not be 'true' Muslims, but they reckon they're the most devout, and they're certainly the most vocal. If I criticise aspects of Islam, then you attack me and believe I'm prejudiced. Sure I'm not Muslim but that does not mean that I can't criticise people's ideas. I judge the ideas on the merits of the ideas.

Whoa whoa whoa. Hang on. I forgot to mention this, but some of the Muttawas, especially those who have not been involved in closing down that girl's school that was on fire in Medina, are actually not involved in such messy business. Some are actually devout people who encourage other Muslims to carry on their religious tasks (i.e. they behave more or less like imams, but they're not as vocal). I don't believe you're 100% prejudiced, but you haven't seen the full pictures. Feel free to criticise them, but don't criticise my religion. I know what you mean by this quote.

The fact is that tolerance is not widespread in the house of Islam, nor is liberty. This needs attention, and open discussion.

Islam encourages tolerance. Sheiks and imams speak of it often in their Friday prayer speeches and other addresses to Muslims who frequent mosques and sorts. But liberty... well, define it. If this attention and open discussion is what you seek, start out with defining liberty exactly so I can get a clear picture of what we are trying to talk about.

But some of them were victims of the globalising Saudi teenage population.

There are Muttawas who have been disgusted by the divergence of Saudi teens from Islam and convergence towards sins, transgressions, and so forth, that have been brought up by the media (drinking, driving, doing drugs, chasing girls, harrassing women, etc.).

But for now, let's focus on the liberty issue.

[Robin Hood]

Quote: I disagree with the synonymous linkage many of these Saudi imams make between Jews and Zionists. They do not mean the Jews as a whole; they really intend the Zionists who have taken over the Palestinian lands

Say that all you want but it's not true....Saudi educational text books 'inform' people that there is a global Jewish conspiracy.

Quote: And what do u exactly mean by idolater?

I was using the typical idiot imam's words for a Christian.

Quote: Feel free to criticise them, but don't criticise my religion.

When the most deranged religious fanatics aren't in control in the home of Islam, I'll not criticise it.

Quote: Islam encourages tolerance. Sheiks and imams speak of it often in their Friday prayer speeches and other addresses to Muslims who frequent mosques and sorts.

Ever heard a Sheik or Imam say that you shopuld judge a Jew on their merits as an individual?

Quote: But liberty... well, define it.

the principle that individuals should be allowed complete freedom of action as long as they do not infringe on the same freedom of others. This is usually taken by libertarians to mean that no one may initiate coercion, which they define as the use of physical force, the potential use (threat) of such, or the use of fraud to prevent individuals from having wilful use of their person or property. ...

[EugenicHegemony]

Quote: the principle that individuals should be allowed complete freedom of action as long as they do not infringe on the same freedom of others. This is usually taken by libertarians to mean that no one may initiate coercion, which they define as the use of physical force, the potential use (threat) of such, or the use of fraud to prevent individuals from having wilful use of their person or property. ...

That's just common sense principles. If we heeded them, this world would be a much better place. First government needs to get the hell out of our lives.

[Saracen]

Say that all you want but it's not true....Saudi educational text books 'inform' people that there is a global Jewish conspiracy.

It's just a theory. Just as the theory that an Islamic worldwide conspiracy is still in the minds of many biased Anti-Islamics.

I was using the typical idiot imam's words for a Christian.

Nah, Christians are not idolaters. Neither are non-Muslims. "Idolaters", I agree, is an extreme form of the word and should be removed... just like "Islamofascism".

When the most deranged religious fanatics aren't in control in the home of Islam, I'll not criticise it.

Forget about Saudi Arabia. There are many other good sheiks out there people listen to. They've got higher ratings than any Saudi sheik I know. Here's one of them:
http://www.amr-khaled.net/
Go to the English part of the website.

Ever heard a Sheik or Imam say that you shopuld judge a Jew on their merits as an individual?

Yes. Many times. It comes from the imams I talked about right now.

That's just common sense principles. If we heeded them, this world would be a much better place. First government needs to get the hell out of our lives.

Good point. :tu:

[Robin Hood]

Quote: It's just a theory. Just as the theory that an Islamic worldwide conspiracy is still in the minds of many biased Anti-Islamics.

No it's hatred put into words, it's without evidence and without reason. It's the safety blanket of the abhorrent and ignorant.

Quote: Nah, Christians are not idolaters. Neither are non-Muslims. "Idolaters", I agree, is an extreme form of the word and should be removed... just like "Islamofascism".

Islamofascism isn't used to describve Islam, but to distinguish between Islam and OBL. Of course some people say that it's impossible to distinguish between them......you seem to be arguing their case.

Quote: Yes. Many times. It comes from the imams I talked about right now.

You mentioned one Imam...who's website is banned over here in China so I can't look.

Quote: Good point

It is a good point....it also means no banning of books, like you previously advocated, it means liberty. Can you support that?

[cap'n queasy]

The title should be McJihad versus McWorld. :lol:

[Saracen]

Well, well... look who's back.

No it's hatred put into words, it's without evidence and without reason. It's the safety blanket of the abhorrent and ignorant.

Just as there is on anti-Islamic websites. So what?

Islamofascism isn't used to describve Islam, but to distinguish between Islam and OBL. Of course some people say that it's impossible to distinguish between them......you seem to be arguing their case.

Back up, Reason. You are starting to lose track here. "Islamofascism" shouldn't be used because Islam has nothing to do with fascism or whatever ideals OBL has cropped up in his brain. Calling his ideals "Islamofascism" is just as bad as calling an Israeli a "Judeofascist."

You mentioned one Imam...who's website is banned over here in China so I can't look.

There are much more. But why bother give you the links when I know that you are 100% anti-Islamic? Show some heart and I may give you some links to enjoy.

It is a good point....it also means no banning of books, like you previously advocated, it means liberty. Can you support that?

I can support liberty. But tell me something, Reason. When Ahmadinejad gave his controversial speech, do you think he had the right to say it?

[cassandrabandra]

If I look at my experience as a non Muslim in the Muslim world, and with the Muslim community in my own country, I would have to say that Muslims I have encountered are at least as anti the terrorism perpetrated by people claiming to be Muslims as most westerners are.

There are several reasons for this.

One is that for some, and I am sure Moath is aware of this, terrorism was already real when for most Americans it was just part of the plot of a Bruce Willis movie.

The second is that terrorism hurts far more Muslims than it does westerners. This happens directly - as the victims, or indirectly, as many of those in the west are identified with these actions, and therefore victimised by westerners as a result. This is especially true of women.

I would really like some of those people who tar all Muslims with the same brush strokes as they would OBL to find out how their Muslim neighbour is after a terrorst attack, and extend the hand of friendship rather than condemnation. That is a good way to fight the distrust that can breed division and hatred.

I also think that there should be more acknowledgement of the truth about Palestine. Its all very well shrugging our shoulders and saying it was created by the UN - but should not attention be paid to promises made during WWI? Should we not look at what it meant for the Palestinian people to be forced from their land? Would we fight if our land was taken from us? We need to consider these things in any discussion of the Palestinian issue, and how others in the region see the state of Israel. Many Arabs identify the Palestinians as their brothers, and the injustice done to them cuts very deeply.

My experience of Islam is that it is very much like any other major religion. There are those who read the teachings in such a way as to demonstrate an understanding of universal brotherhood between all men, the importance of right action, charity, love, genuine spirituality, and the search for knowledge, and there are others who read it differently.

I am not a religious person, however I do not believe that any religion should be held responsible for the abuses men choose to make of it. No matter who they are.

And in the meantime I think there is a need to look at ALL types of fundamentalism that would pull us into a dark age - not just religious fundamentalism.

[Saracen]

One is that for some, and I am sure Moath is aware of this, terrorism was already real when for most Americans it was just part of the plot of a Bruce Willis movie.

Very aware of this, thank you. :-D

The second is that terrorism hurts far more Muslims than it does westerners. This happens directly - as the victims, or indirectly, as many of those in the west are identified with these actions, and therefore victimised by westerners as a result. This is especially true of women.

It is. Many westerners get to bicker us about it, and we get criticised by bodies worldwide. Shame on them.
Another point to consider: most converts to Islam in the past decade were women.

I would really like some of those people who tar all Muslims with the same brush strokes as they would OBL to find out how their Muslim neighbour is after a terrorst attack, and extend the hand of friendship rather than condemnation. That is a good way to fight the distrust that can breed division and hatred.

Wow. Sheer poetry. :clap:
I'd like to see that as well... Anyone?

I also think that there should be more acknowledgement of the truth about Palestine. Its all very well shrugging our shoulders and saying it was created by the UN - but should not attention be paid to promises made during WWI? Should we not look at what it meant for the Palestinian people to be forced from their land? Would we fight if our land was taken from us? We need to consider these things in any discussion of the Palestinian issue, and how others in the region see the state of Israel. Many Arabs identify the Palestinians as their brothers, and the injustice done to them cuts very deeply.

:tu: :tu:

My experience of Islam is that it is very much like any other major religion. There are those who read the teachings in such a way as to demonstrate an understanding of universal brotherhood between all men, the importance of right action, charity, love, genuine spirituality, and the search for knowledge, and there are others who read it differently.

Very true. Islam is not at fault. Only a minority of its followers these days are. This is what many people don't understand.

And in the meantime I think there is a need to look at ALL types of fundamentalism that would pull us into a dark age - not just religious fundamentalism.

American fundamentalism is one of them. The American Government right now is made up of right-wing extremists, so to speak.

[Robin Hood]

Quote: Just as there is on anti-Islamic websites. So what?

The difference is a line that you propose, and the other is one nobody here proposes.....making your words abhorrent by your own standards.

Quote: Back up, Reason. You are starting to lose track here. "Islamofascism" shouldn't be used because Islam has nothing to do with fascism or whatever ideals OBL has cropped up in his brain. Calling his ideals "Islamofascism" is just as bad as calling an Israeli a "Judeofascist."

OBL quotes libeally from the book of Islam, is supported by huge numbers of people who observe most of the tenets of Islam, and calls himself Islamic.

Quote: There are much more. But why bother give you the links when I know that you are 100% anti-Islamic? Show some heart and I may give you some links to enjoy.

Show some intelligence....I mentioned that the website you gave me was banned, and you ask me to 'show some heart'...please don't give Islam the bad name you're giving it with your 'discussion' methods. I never gave you any 100% anti-Islamic links...that's just a dumb lie.

Quote: I can support liberty. But tell me something, Reason. When Ahmadinejad gave his controversial speech, do you think he had the right to say it?

Of course he did, but he has no right to his job, or the money stolen and given to him or anything like that.
Quote:
The second is that terrorism hurts far more Muslims than it does westerners. This happens directly - as the victims, or indirectly, as many of those in the west are identified with these actions, and therefore victimised by westerners as a result. This is especially true of women.

Give one peice of evidence...unless of course the terrorism directly injures or kills a Muslim - the only time when denouncements of terrorism are made with any conviction and strenght by a great many of self-appointed 'Muslim community leaders'.

Quote: I would really like some of those people who tar all Muslims with the same brush strokes as they would OBL to find out how their Muslim neighbour is after a terrorst attack,

The people like that are pretty much a figment of your guilt ridden imagination.
Quote:
I also think that there should be more acknowledgement of the truth about Palestine.

I agree. For one, the plans of groups like Hamas and Fatah should be told to everyone, or wait hamas do tell everyone (in their own charter on thie rown website) they want the genocide of Israel.

Quote: but should not attention be paid to promises made during WWI?

Like the German one to the Ottoman Empire saying that they (the Turks) should rule all Arabia?

Quote: Would we fight if our land was taken from us?

You possibly wouldn't. You feel more guilty and blame capitalism or soemthing, but some of us would. Of course if it was bought from us, with our consent, then we wouldn't fight - though maybe you might then and blame capitalism or soemthing (effectively still blaming yourself, but this time correctly).

Quote: Many Arabs identify the Palestinians as their brothers, and the injustice done to them cuts very deeply.

That's why OBL never mentioned Palestine - except as an aside - until Western guilt-ridden commentators connected him with it.......and that's why the Palestinians haven't been allowed into any of their 'brother's' countries (except Western friednly Jordan) or the West itself.

Quote: I am not a religious person, however I do not believe that any religion should be held responsible for the abuses men choose to make of it. No matter who they are.

ISlam is an ideology - a set of ideas...just like any other. It's the ideas that matter, and ignoring the contradictions in most ideologies (of course including Islam) it has many bad ideas. These need to be criticised as any bad ideas are criticised otherwise 9/11 and such like will continue to happen.

Quote: Another point to consider: most converts to Islam in the past decade were women.

That's because most converts to Islam come from marriage, and Islamic women are killed by their families if they think of marrying a non-Islamic man...of course the opposite isn't held to be true.

Quote: American fundamentalism is one of them. The American Government right now is made up of right-wing extremists, so to speak.

You need an ideology to be fundemental about. America is a country not a set of ideas....lay off the xenophobia.

[Saracen]

The difference is a line that you propose, and the other is one nobody here proposes.....making your words abhorrent by your own standards.

Now, now, no insulting.

OBL quotes libeally from the book of Islam, is supported by huge numbers of people who observe most of the tenets of Islam, and calls himself Islamic.

He's one of many radical sheiks. And the key word here is "most". Actually, it's few. You know nothing about Islam or its tenets. He calls himself Islamic, but isn't in practice.

Show some intelligence....I mentioned that the website you gave me was banned, and you ask me to 'show some heart'...please don't give Islam the bad name you're giving it with your 'discussion' methods. I never gave you any 100% anti-Islamic links...that's just a dumb lie.

http://www.islam-guide.com/
And for once, OPEN AND LOOK at the link.

Of course he did, but he has no right to his job, or the money stolen and given to him or anything like that.

More US-based propaganda. I thought I was ignorant. Gotcha again, Reason.

Give one peice of evidence...unless of course the terrorism directly injures or kills a Muslim - the only time when denouncements of terrorism are made with any conviction and strenght by a great many of self-appointed 'Muslim community leaders'.

There already is evidence. While the imams of the Muslim community condemn terrorist attack after terrorist attack, you're happy enough to bash Muslims with so much accusations. Stop the hate, and reach out a hand. Islam is not at fault, Reason.

You possibly wouldn't. You feel more guilty and blame capitalism or soemthing, but some of us would. Of course if it was bought from us, with our consent, then we wouldn't fight - though maybe you might then and blame capitalism or soemthing (effectively still blaming yourself, but this time correctly).

Reason, get real. We're talking Palestine, not capitalism.

ISlam is an ideology - a set of ideas...just like any other. It's the ideas that matter, and ignoring the contradictions in most ideologies (of course including Islam) it has many bad ideas. These need to be criticised as any bad ideas are criticised otherwise 9/11 and such like will continue to happen.

That is ignorance and will lead you to your downfall. Islam is a pure ideology and is not at fault. Reason, I'm more than convinced you are anti-Islamic. Stop bashing Islam with so much baseless sh*t. Islam doesn't have ANY bad ideas. Only that many interpreters of the religion interpret it poorly. The more Islam is criticised, the more people like OBL will take advantage of this animosity and start another 9/11. Don't spread the hate. OBL wants the conflict to flame up. He's more of a catalyst than a firestarter.

That's why OBL never mentioned Palestine - except as an aside - until Western guilt-ridden commentators connected him with it.......and that's why the Palestinians haven't been allowed into any of their 'brother's' countries (except Western friednly Jordan) or the West itself.

OBL expressed solidarity with the Palestinians, nothing more. I still do think he's a despicable man, but that's all he did.

That's because most converts to Islam come from marriage, and Islamic women are killed by their families if they think of marrying a non-Islamic man...of course the opposite isn't held to be true.

That is another anti-Islamic MYTH, Reason. There are only five or so stories about such things, but your friendly neighborhood anti-Islamic media magnified and exaggerrated those stories. I've seriously had it with you, Reason. I'm ignoring you from now on. It's useless to argue with you.

You need an ideology to be fundemental about. America is a country not a set of ideas....lay off the xenophobia.

I'm talking about the CAPITALIST, REPUBLICAN, ZIONIST AMERICAN RIGHT-WING EXTREMISTS.

[cassandrabandra]

If you want to look at fundamentalisms, I think this book may be quite interesting:

How Mumbo-Jumbo Conquered the World
Author: Francis Wheen
Publisher: Fourth Estate, 2004.

he discusseses the rise in superstition, relativism and emotional hysteria over the past quarter of a century.

then of course, there's always

Tariq Ali
The clash of fundamentalisms (Think thats the title)
around 2001

he looks of course at religious fundamentalism, but also touches on economic fundamentalism, which is an interesting one, because people think its so RATIONAL, but a lot of the premises are in fact ideologically based.

of course, fundamentalism is on the rise everywhere ... Hindu fundamentalism is something we don't hear about, but its something Sikhs and Muslims in the Indian sub continent are well aware of... and Sikh fundamentalism led to the assassination of Indira Ghandi over twenty years ago ... then again, Jewish fundamentalism is certainly on the rise - most of the Jews I know prefer to distance themselves from that one.

I heard an interesting lecture a few weeks ago by a Sri Lankan academic who talked about the growth of ethno religious conflict. If I were to follow her line of reasoning (and she did refer to barber's book, along with several others) we're looking at all of this from the wrong angle ... but I'd have to do a bit of research to re acquaint myself with her argument sufficiently to present it here.

[Robin Hood]

Quote: he looks of course at religious fundamentalism, but also touches on economic fundamentalism, which is an interesting one, because people think its so RATIONAL, but a lot of the premises are in fact ideologically based.

Economics is subject of study...I prefer Von Mises' Praxeology personally...but ignoring that I hope you realse that you can't have an economic fundementalist any more than you can have an English literature fundementalist.....

Quote: Hindu fundamentalism is something we don't hear about, but its something Sikhs and Muslims in the Indian sub continent are well aware of... and Sikh fundamentalism led to the assassination of Indira Ghandi over twenty years ago ... then again, Jewish fundamentalism is certainly on the rise - most of the Jews I know prefer to distance themselves from that one.

Yeah it was the Hindus, Sikhs, Jews and economists who flew into the twin towers.....and it's them we see on tv calling us evil and threatening to wipe us all out....sure just tell yourself anything so that everything will be the same, I mean if Muslims do something bad then it can't be their culture that is rotten by that everybodies culture is rotten and that everybody does bad things ..blah..postmodernism...blah

Quote: Now, now, no insulting.

You insulted yourself....I just pointed that fact out.

Quote: He's one of many radical sheiks. And the key word here is "most". Actually, it's few. You know nothing about Islam or its tenets. He calls himself Islamic, but isn't in practice.

are people who strive to ban book Islamic?

Quote: More US-based propaganda. I thought I was ignorant. Gotcha again, Reason.

You thought right...I fail to see how me stating that tax is wrong is US propoanda - I mean why would a government agency propogate such information.

Quote: Islam is not at fault, Reason.

Who is? Anyone who wants to ban books (you, being a prime example)...

Quote: Islam is a pure ideology

I hope you realise that you've not written one logical statement..this assertion being the most obscene. What on earth does 'pure ideology' mean? It's just a vapid expression of nothing.

Quote: Islam doesn't have ANY bad ideas.

Ah! So this explains your lack of rationality....suddenly Islam is perfect, beyond criticsm and anyone who does so is wrong by definition! Wow! I never actually believed that anyone was so horribly irrational.

[Saracen]

Hey, Reason. I can see that you posted, but I don't see your post. I'm still ignoring you.