Political Crossfire Forums

[Locke25]

fredoreo wrote: Locke25 wrote: Alexander The Great wrote: Locke25 wrote: Alexander The Great wrote: Locke25 wrote: I think Jerusalem should go to the Christians! Yayyyy! More conflict!

Well, the Christians aren't any effective vote, and those who are want to stay under Jewish controll, because sometimes the Muslims slaughter them and we defend them as it was in Mrar Village.

Yes... I'd rather the Jews have it rather than the Muslims.. just because they scare me. Geesh, I make such horrible generalizations.

It's not a generalization at all, they destroy those who don't agree with them, if they don't submitt, oh that's a mistake....

After the Israeli Inedependence war, when the Ancient city surrendered, they sacked Synagogues.

I don't think all Muslims are like that. :wink: I think people automatically assume they are all terrorists.. which is just not true. Many in fact do not support the actions of terrorists...

Of course there are plenty of Muslims that are fanatical and hate everyone who is not Muslim. And those fellas are brainwashed idiots :-D

The fanatical muslims are a minority. Unfortunately we have this tendancy to judge a whole population by looking at the actions of a minority.
In fact muslim people are extremely friendly, you'd really be amazed. At some moments I didn't believe people could be this nice. At least that was what I retained from Egypt, and also Tunisia.

It's funny though to read some peoples' reactions concerning muslims. They go on and on about how much muslims hate everybody, and keep pointing out the negative aspects etc etc. And then you wonder, geez, who are these people who supposedly speak out against hatred, and then suddenly show nothing but hate against a whole population? In the end, who is really brainwashed?

Yes - I realize that there are many, many nice Muslims. And I agree that people who think all Muslims are terrorists are "brainwashed." But... the fanatical Muslims leave a bigger impression so whenever I think of Muslims I think of terrorists.......which is horrible of me. Oh well.

[Alexander The Great]

Locke25 wrote: fredoreo wrote: Locke25 wrote: Alexander The Great wrote: Locke25 wrote: Alexander The Great wrote: Locke25 wrote: I think Jerusalem should go to the Christians! Yayyyy! More conflict!

Well, the Christians aren't any effective vote, and those who are want to stay under Jewish controll, because sometimes the Muslims slaughter them and we defend them as it was in Mrar Village.

Yes... I'd rather the Jews have it rather than the Muslims.. just because they scare me. Geesh, I make such horrible generalizations.

It's not a generalization at all, they destroy those who don't agree with them, if they don't submitt, oh that's a mistake....

After the Israeli Inedependence war, when the Ancient city surrendered, they sacked Synagogues.

I don't think all Muslims are like that. :wink: I think people automatically assume they are all terrorists.. which is just not true. Many in fact do not support the actions of terrorists...

Of course there are plenty of Muslims that are fanatical and hate everyone who is not Muslim. And those fellas are brainwashed idiots :-D

The fanatical muslims are a minority. Unfortunately we have this tendancy to judge a whole population by looking at the actions of a minority.
In fact muslim people are extremely friendly, you'd really be amazed. At some moments I didn't believe people could be this nice. At least that was what I retained from Egypt, and also Tunisia.

It's funny though to read some peoples' reactions concerning muslims. They go on and on about how much muslims hate everybody, and keep pointing out the negative aspects etc etc. And then you wonder, geez, who are these people who supposedly speak out against hatred, and then suddenly show nothing but hate against a whole population? In the end, who is really brainwashed?

Yes - I realize that there are many, many nice Muslims. And I agree that people who think all Muslims are terrorists are "brainwashed." But... the fanatical Muslims leave a bigger impression so whenever I think of Muslims I think of terrorists.......which is horrible of me. Oh well.

OK, I know that there are nice and I know some, but, if they don't support it, why do they let terroristsd into their houses?

[XiangYu]

Roxanne of the world wrote: ok.... Yeah, same sentiments here, but mine would be like OOoooooooooooo kay! ...

[Glorfindel]

first of all, the orthdox christians in palestine who lived as one family with muslims for hundreds of years still stand with muslims and reject the Israeli invasion of Jerusalem, they have always rejected it just as much as muslims have, and i've got pictures that i would post if i had a scanner..a picture that shows a group of priests and bishops standing with muslims Imams after they got out of a conference that was set to show the british that palestinians muslims and christians refuse giving their lands to Israelis....


oh muslims at the city surrendered sacked synagogues? which ones?

what happened in Deer Yaseen, Alexander?
what happened in Sabra and Shattila?

what about Jenin? why was the press and the media prevented from entering Jenin not a while ago?

i've got a list of massacres that many of later on became prime ministers , like Begin and Sharon and Rabin had been in charge of executing

in the whole world, war criminals like Saddam and Melosovich are being taken to court and maybe punished and in Israel they reward their war criminals by electing them prime ministers

ahh who am i trying to convince? it is easier to convince Bush into believing that the war in Iraq was a mistake than to make alexander say he is wrong

[Lancaster]

Don't worry Glorfindel, your outrage does not fall on deaf ears.... These people make me angry too "Islam is against moderism" "They hate America because they do not submit" "Thank God for Charlemagne" "They forced the people they conquered to convert"

IDIOTS!!!

First off, Islam is not anti-modern, I have no idea where you'd get that idea! If it's from afghanistan, this is not because of Islam! This is because the Americans installed the Taliban to cause problems for Russia. Th Taliban are whack jobs! Dictators and warlords who served themselves under the veil of Islam! If you look at Iran, This WAS a modern country, but the AMERICANS backed the Shah, because he had the oil, then Persia turned into Iran and Khomeni took over, and Khomeni was incompetant and greedy! It's because of him that Iran is backwards, not Islam!!! Iraq was also a dictatorship, supported by, guess who? THE AMERICANS!!! untill Saddam became a little too greedy and they had to switch his regime for a new puppet. Islam is a uniting force, that would have kept the middle easyt modern if the Americans kept their hands to themselves!

The Middle East doesn't hate America for not being Muslim!! They hate them because they are the root of 70%-80% of their problems! Wouldn't you hate a country that kept you in poverty, stole your resources, answered to no one, acted like they're innocent and perfect, flaunted their wealth, called you barbarians and 'evil', and randomly invaded you?

Also, It was CHARLES MARTEL NOT CHARLEMAGNE that defeated the muslims in 732 at Tours! Way to look like you know what you're talking about :x

As for the Muslims forcing their conquer-ees to convert, OH MY GOD! PUT IT INTO CONTEXT! Look at the time period, we Christians were doing the same thing! (and as for the Israeli guy, wtf? it's in the talmud that you guys did the same thing) What I find absolutley infurriating, is that the Muslims DIDN'T kill or torture when the conquer-ees refused, they just became second-class citizens, unlike in europe, where if you doubted Jesus you'd be tortured to death.


And Glorfindel, although I agree with much of what you said, I have two points for you to consider, firstly, Israel was created by the UN, and on it's first day of existance it was immediatly invaded by 5 nations sparking the Yom kippur war (Israeli's know it as the independance war). When Israeli Paratroopers took back Jerusalem, the forces that were defending it, lit much of the new parts of the city ablaze, but it was indiscriminate, they didn't focus on the synagogues, they merely lit them along with everything else that proved strategic.

Secondly, Rabin was a monster, he had his "one for ten policy" basically where for every one Israeli that was killed he would send his soldiers into palestinian territory to murder ten palestinians. I will say this though, when Rabin took office, he was a changed man, he ammended his "one for ten policy" and replaced it with "guns for peace" basically where he was disarming both sides of the conflict, and encouraging cooperation between the two sides. For this, an Israeli extremist shot him, and killed him, because the extremist believed the holy land was theirs and the palestinians had no claim. I will say this, Rbin was a monster, but he changed, and if he had lived, I honestly believe that Israel would be a Nation consisting of Palestinians and Israelies, more or less peacefully.

[gary the cheater]

jihad v. mcworld, clash of civilizations, the end of history. all required reading for a first year international relations course.

one thing these theories have in common is they are grossly over-simplified. they present themselves as paradigms for understanding the post-cold war era. the way we understood the previous era as a conflict between capitalist individualism and socialism.

however, these paradigms all grossly overlook the transition from idealism to realpolitik that has taken place since the soviet withdrawal. in their eagerness for universality, they not only overlook several exceptions, but appear as blatant apologists for the new american unilateralism that has appeared in the new system

foreigners are not all tribalist hotheads despite barber's attempts to portray them as such. the united states routinely gets mixed up in regional quarrels even going so far as to form alliances with such unlikely partners as a medieval dictatorship in saudi arabia, much to the regret of huntington's arguments. and while there are still a few states that haven't adopted the american capitalist model, others have backtracked, since fukuyama's book appeared.

the whole mcworld thesis that these regional civilizations are inherently antagonistic to modern civilization smacks of racism. and i have to agree with lancaster's summary of the situation in the middle east that islam is not anti-modern as the author may choose to see it. they are anti-imperialist, whehter you choose to call it as that or mcworld.

[Lancaster]

gary the cheater wrote: jihad v. mcworld, clash of civilizations, the end of history. all required reading for a first year international relations course.

one thing these theories have in common is they are grossly over-simplified. they present themselves as paradigms for understanding the post-cold war era. the way we understood the previous era as a conflict between capitalist individualism and socialism.

however, these paradigms all grossly overlook the transition from idealism to realpolitik that has taken place since the soviet withdrawal. in their eagerness for universality, they not only overlook several exceptions, but appear as blatant apologists for the new american unilateralism that has appeared in the new system

foreigners are not all tribalist hotheads despite barber's attempts to portray them as such. the united states routinely gets mixed up in regional quarrels even going so far as to form alliances with such unlikely partners as a medieval dictatorship in saudi arabia, much to the regret of huntington's arguments. and while there are still a few states that haven't adopted the american capitalist model, others have backtracked, since fukuyama's book appeared.

the whole mcworld thesis that these regional civilizations are inherently antagonistic to modern civilization smacks of racism. and i have to agree with lancaster's summary of the situation in the middle east that islam is not anti-modern as the author may choose to see it. they are anti-imperialist, whehter you choose to call it as that or mcworld.

And in the end, Canadians do see through the fog. By the way... Gary, this thread was practicaly dead (and yes I see the Irony of pointing this out ten days after your post)

[Robin Hood]

Quote: Eventually the Jihad will be defeated because of the spreading Modernism.

The problem is that modernism, a movement that began in the Enlightenment, seems to be under siege by post-modernism. This is one of the reasons I believe that Jihad has such appeal especiallu amongst Western educated Muslims, the Jihadis are more really post-modern Islamists.

The two can fuse easily, because they are both anti-rational, anti-enlightenment and thus against the West. This also explains the intelligentsia of Europe's sympathising with Islamists, a slightly suicidal sympathy since the European intelligentsia would be the first to have their heads hacked off.

In Europe post-modernism has become dominant, less so in the UK. We can see this in almost every facet of life. For example, the student's union bans speech by the BNP (a disgusting British facsist organization) and Hizb Ut Tahrir (a disgusting Islamist fascist organization). When arguing against the ban, (it after all a violation of freedom of speech and treats univeristy students like children, removing freedom fo ideas from the place where such a thing is most vital) people simply say that Hizb Ut Tahrir is another culture and so we shouldn't ban it......idiots!!!!

This applies to almost every political discussion, whether in the media, parliament, or even amongst normal people. How can modernism win, when reason is being rejected by it's birthplace?

Every time you hear someone say 'an opinion can never be wrong' or 'it's their culture' or some other cultural relativist rubbish, or meaningless anti-rationalism, you're seeing the undermining of the Enlightenment and the entire basis of liberty, and modern civilization.

[Lancaster]

Reason wrote: Quote: Eventually the Jihad will be defeated because of the spreading Modernism.

The problem is that modernism, a movement that began in the Enlightenment, seems to be under siege by post-modernism. This is one of the reasons I believe that Jihad has such appeal especiallu amongst Western educated Muslims, the Jihadis are more really post-modern Islamists.

The two can fuse easily, because they are both anti-rational, anti-enlightenment and thus against the West. This also explains the intelligentsia of Europe's sympathising with Islamists, a slightly suicidal sympathy since the European intelligentsia would be the first to have their heads hacked off.

In Europe post-modernism has become dominant, less so in the UK. We can see this in almost every facet of life. For example, the student's union bans speech by the BNP (a disgusting British facsist organization) and Hizb Ut Tahrir (a disgusting Islamist fascist organization). When arguing against the ban, (it after all a violation of freedom of speech and treats univeristy students like children, removing freedom fo ideas from the place where such a thing is most vital) people simply say that Hizb Ut Tahrir is another culture and so we shouldn't ban it......idiots!!!!

This applies to almost every political discussion, whether in the media, parliament, or even amongst normal people. How can modernism win, when reason is being rejected by it's birthplace?

Every time you hear someone say 'an opinion can never be wrong' or 'it's their culture' or some other cultural relativist rubbish, or meaningless anti-rationalism, you're seeing the undermining of the Enlightenment and the entire basis of liberty, and modern civilization.

Alright, I think I can see what you are saying, but don't you think that this 'Jihadi' movement could possibly have something to do with the way the Americans, and prior to that the British have screwed the middle east at every oppertunity?

Couldn't you possibly trace this 'anti-rationalist' movement (as you've dubbed it) to feelings of frustration and disgust the west has caused in the Middle east?

Also, I don't know how things swing in Britain, but in Canada we as a Nation have a little something called respect for culture, and alternative ideas. Personally I think that when you generalize like: Quote: Every time you hear someone say 'an opinion can never be wrong' or 'it's their culture' or some other cultural relativist rubbish, or meaningless anti-rationalism, you're seeing the undermining of the Enlightenment and the entire basis of liberty, and modern civilization. you are the one being 'anti-rational' by calling cultural sensitivity rubbish. But hey, I guess if respect is anti-rational, then I am not a very rational person.

[Robin Hood]

Quote:
Alright, I think I can see what you are saying, but don't you think that this 'Jihadi' movement could possibly have something to do with the way the Americans, and prior to that the British have screwed the middle east at every oppertunity?

This unjustified assertion doesn't explain why British born Muslims were the perpetrators (or should I say perpetraitors) of the July 7th bombing. People, who in fact had no ancestral lineage in the Middle East, since they were South Asian. People who'd never visited the damn place, and people who'd generally lived comftable middle class, edcuated lives.

Quote: Couldn't you possibly trace this 'anti-rationalist' movement (as you've dubbed it) to feelings of frustration and disgust the west has caused in the Middle east?

A reaction to Enlightenment, has occured in both East and West. This reaction has been going for a long time, and what excatly has the west done wrong in the Middle East?

Quote: you are the one being 'anti-rational' by calling cultural sensitivity rubbish. But hey, I guess if respect is anti-rational, then I am not a very rational person.

You're conflating two issues. One of live and let live, which I fully suscribe to. With allowing a rejection of that because of a 'culture', which is what you subscribe to. Female circumcision is not ok, just because of the culture. Honour killings are not ok, repression of females is not ok. Desecrating synagogues is not ok. Stoning homosexuals is not ok.

What's more, whilst I fully support freedom of speech, I'm going to use it to criticize every idiot who calls for the extermination of kaffir, and non-muslims, every one who says that beating one's wife is ok etc.

All cultures are not equal, as a culture is a set of ideas, and all ideas are not equal.

[Robin Hood]

Quote: So you stinking Jews think you have found a good trick, eh? Islam offer peace and justice under one true flag for all men, and you know that!. If we come to the lands long corrupted by the Jew, staying pure and true to the Message, you have your dogs bark that we are "The Other". If our children seek to live among you as you do so live, you have your dogs bark that we are "Corrupt". And so ungrateful children of Ibrhm [may he be Blessed] make the world s**t for all good men that they may refine gold from blood.



But this trick will not work. Your cunning will no more save you than it ever has since the days of the Prophet. Allah is Great, and Just, and Merciful - to Men. But to the Dogs of Al Harb He is Destroyer.



Mr. Steyn, you are stupid.

Igrin Sayif

http://www.steynonline.com/index2.cfm?edit_id=30

Is this beyond criticism, because it's his culture? Is this the 'respect' that you endorse?

[Lancaster]

Reason wrote: Quote: So you stinking Jews think you have found a good trick, eh? Islam offer peace and justice under one true flag for all men, and you know that!. If we come to the lands long corrupted by the Jew, staying pure and true to the Message, you have your dogs bark that we are "The Other". If our children seek to live among you as you do so live, you have your dogs bark that we are "Corrupt". And so ungrateful children of Ibrhm [may he be Blessed] make the world s**t for all good men that they may refine gold from blood.



But this trick will not work. Your cunning will no more save you than it ever has since the days of the Prophet. Allah is Great, and Just, and Merciful - to Men. But to the Dogs of Al Harb He is Destroyer.



Mr. Steyn, you are stupid.

Igrin Sayif

http://www.steynonline.com/index2.cfm?edit_id=30

Is this beyond criticism, because it's his culture? Is this the 'respect' that you endorse?

There is a line between hate literature/hate mongering and culture. I completely misunderstood what you were saying, I thought you meant they were just Fascist (ie: supporters of a totalitarian governnment), who happened to be muslim.

Anyways, the problems between jews and muslims cannot be summed up by one side being right and the other being wrong. The Israeli government routinely murders palestinians, and the palestinians routinely murder Jews. Untill one side finally says "enough of this s**t, forget the palestinian ghettos, forget the suicide bombers, let's have free movement of people throughout the country, and no more of this nonsense about who God favours" then The conflict will continue forever unabated. As westerners, the best thing we could have done was to try and stay out of it, but we didn't. Now, since we took the side of the jews, the muslim extremists hate us, and hate the jews even more. The West didn't keep it's fingers to itself, and now we have to deal with it or have our fingers chopped off. The middle east is crappy now, because of Britain's Carving up the Ottomon Empire, and the American's robbing them blind. Islam is not anti-modern, it is not anti-rational, it's just not blind. We have wronged them in a horrible way, and untill we stand up and admit that, we are going to remain part of this whole stupidity.

[Robin Hood]

Quote: Anyways, the problems between jews and muslims cannot be summed up by one side being right and the other being wrong.

I never said it could be. I did say, however, that post modern cultural relativity was wrong. I said that some cultures are better than others. That tolerance is better than intolerance for example.

The post-modernist denies this.

Quote: Untill one side finally

The only side that can stop that particular conflict, unlitarelly (except by crushing the opposition) is the Palestinian side. As if the Palestinian side completely renounced terrorism, Israel would have no reason to carry on with their military strikes. Since their attacks are carried out by a democratic government, they'd stop.

Quote: Now, since we took the side of the jews, the muslim extremists hate us, and hate the jews even more.

When did we 'take the side of the Jews'?

Quote: The middle east is crappy now, because of Britain's Carving up the Ottomon Empire, and the American's robbing them blind.

Yes let's blame ourselves!!! America is doing no robbing, except of her own people. Meanwhile the Ottoman Empire was going to collapse anyway, and it was a corrupt and terrible empire that the world is better off without. The people to blame for the ME's misfortunes are the inhabitants of that region.

Quote: Islam is not anti-modern, it is not anti-rational, it's just not blind.

Are you trying to say Islam isn't anti-rational?!?!?!?!?! :lol: I doubt many clerics would make such a comment.Of course it's anti-rational and anti-modern, since modern (as in modernist) is the enlightenment, which refutes religions. certainly organized ones.

Quote: We have wronged them in a horrible way, and untill we stand up and admit that, we are going to remain part of this whole stupidity.

I have done nothing wrong to them at all. Stop trying to guilt trip me, you don't even know me. Doesn't it make you feel comfortable to blame yourself? Get's rid of your sense of powerlessness if you are the root cause, doesn't it? However it's obviously rubbish.

Saudi Arabia, for example, has a decrepid culture. Good people come from Saudi Arabia - of course. I would never judge someone as bad because they are Arabian, I judge people as individuals but there's something wrong with a country where anything on this site occurs:

http://muttawa.blogspot.com/

None of that stuff is my fault. We could help fix it, however. Simply stop accepting tyranny - whether it's another's culture or now; whether you can cook up a way to blame everyone in the west or not and thus take another hit of guilt into your veins.

We are all human, and all deserve the freedom - it is universal.

[Lancaster]

Reason wrote: Quote: Anyways, the problems between jews and muslims cannot be summed up by one side being right and the other being wrong.

I never said it could be. I did say, however, that post modern cultural relativity was wrong. I said that some cultures are better than others. That tolerance is better than intolerance for example.

The post-modernist denies this.

Quote: Untill one side finally

The only side that can stop that particular conflict, unlitarelly (except by crushing the opposition) is the Palestinian side. As if the Palestinian side completely renounced terrorism, Israel would have no reason to carry on with their military strikes. Since their attacks are carried out by a democratic government, they'd stop.

Quote: Now, since we took the side of the jews, the muslim extremists hate us, and hate the jews even more.

When did we 'take the side of the Jews'?

Quote: The middle east is crappy now, because of Britain's Carving up the Ottomon Empire, and the American's robbing them blind.

Yes let's blame ourselves!!! America is doing no robbing, except of her own people. Meanwhile the Ottoman Empire was going to collapse anyway, and it was a corrupt and terrible empire that the world is better off without. The people to blame for the ME's misfortunes are the inhabitants of that region.

Quote: Islam is not anti-modern, it is not anti-rational, it's just not blind.

Are you trying to say Islam isn't anti-rational?!?!?!?!?! :lol: I doubt many clerics would make such a comment.Of course it's anti-rational and anti-modern, since modern (as in modernist) is the enlightenment, which refutes religions. certainly organized ones.

Quote: We have wronged them in a horrible way, and untill we stand up and admit that, we are going to remain part of this whole stupidity.

I have done nothing wrong to them at all. Stop trying to guilt trip me, you don't even know me. Doesn't it make you feel comfortable to blame yourself? Get's rid of your sense of powerlessness if you are the root cause, doesn't it? However it's obviously rubbish.

Saudi Arabia, for example, has a decrepid culture. Good people come from Saudi Arabia - of course. I would never judge someone as bad because they are Arabian, I judge people as individuals but there's something wrong with a country where anything on this site occurs:

http://muttawa.blogspot.com/

None of that stuff is my fault. We could help fix it, however. Simply stop accepting tyranny - whether it's another's culture or now; whether you can cook up a way to blame everyone in the west or not and thus take another hit of guilt into your veins.

We are all human, and all deserve the freedom - it is universal.


Quote: The only side that can stop that particular conflict, unlitarelly (except by crushing the opposition) is the Palestinian side. As if the Palestinian side completely renounced terrorism, Israel would have no reason to carry on with their military strikes. Since their attacks are carried out by a democratic government, they'd stop.


Really? Are you telling me then that the murder of palestinians is the fault of the palestinians? Are you telling me, that when Israel sends attack helicopters into Gaza, or West bank, with the sole purpose of lighting up a few city blocks, this is somehow the fault of the palestinians? are you telling me that a six month old child, incinerated by an Israeli missile has nobody to blame but itself? This my friend is bull. The Israelis are of equal responsibility for the current violence. Their random murders (which they justify through the fact that palestinian insurgents may exist in the region) are perpetuating the violence! If they would stop the indiscriminate bombardment of civilians, then maybe there would be less for the palestinians to retaliate against.

Quote: When did we 'take the side of the Jews'?

When you supplied them with practically every weapon that they are using. when a missile leaves an israeli rocket launcher, it is with technology gifted to them by america. When a bullet leaves a factory, it is a bullet from an israeli factory, paid for by the generous donations of the American government. When a tank bulldozes a muslim house, it is a tank made possible by the americans. When a cruise missile leaves a launch station it is a missile designed and built in america. Do you really question why I said we took the side of the Jews? We armed them, and now we do nothing while they bombard the musims. Israel is a creation of the UN, voted on by the world, and it's independance was enforced by the western nations of the UN during the Yom Kippur war. Do not dream that we are neutral in the conflict. We have chosen sides, and it's too late to turn our backs on the problem.
Quote: Yes let's blame ourselves!!! America is doing no robbing, except of her own people. Meanwhile the Ottoman Empire was going to collapse anyway, and it was a corrupt and terrible empire that the world is better off without. The people to blame for the ME's misfortunes are the inhabitants of that region.

You don't think america is robbing the ME blind? If this is how you feel then you should really give your head a shake. Saudi Arabia, Paternal autocratic dictatorship. Or as you americans call it, an Arabian Monarchy. But of course, would you call it what it really is? not while they're selling you cut rate oil! You ignore the plight of their people and support their government, their women are kept out of schools, beaten, and treated like slaves, all so you can pay a couple of cents less to drive to McDonalds. Haliburton was given all of Iraq's oil contracts, that's ALL of their oil contracts. Forget Iraqi industry, why allow them to get rich off their own resources? Especially when american billionares can ROB THEM BLIND

Quote: Are you trying to say Islam isn't anti-rational?!?!?!?!?! I doubt many clerics would make such a comment.Of course it's anti-rational and anti-modern, since modern (as in modernist) is the enlightenment, which refutes religions. certainly organized ones

Are you telling me that Christianity is modern? have you read the bible? the Koran? You make this claim, yet decide it's an axiom and don't defend it. You say that 'the enlightenment' is modern. the enlightenment was a period of history where Europe stopped listening to religeous doctrine above scientific data. Well, by your definition then all religeous societies are anti-modern. Well, at least the ones that allow relideon to hinder progress. You know, I've heard tell of an 'anti-modern' and 'anti-rational' country. It is a nation where, believe it or not, the public school systems have been forced to teach creationism instead of the scientifically sound evolution theory. even it's most liberal regions have been forced to abandon rational thought and teach a 'comprimise' between the two known as intelligent design. What an anti-rational culture this country has. I don't think I have to tell you this is America.

Quote: I have done nothing wrong to them at all. Stop trying to guilt trip me, you don't even know me. Doesn't it make you feel comfortable to blame yourself? Get's rid of your sense of powerlessness if you are the root cause, doesn't it? However it's obviously rubbish.


How did you vote?

Because if you voted for your government, the bush administration, then you are supporting a regime that has stolen from, murdered, tortured, bombed, humiliated and ruined an Islamic country. you cannot claim to have a clear conciensce if you do then you are blind. The west has a tradition of stealing everything they can get their hands on from Islam. Be it their great books in the middle ages, to their petrochemicals today, we have been beating and robbing these people for over a millenium.

Quote: None of that stuff is my fault. We could help fix it, however. Simply stop accepting tyranny - whether it's another's culture or now; whether you can cook up a way to blame everyone in the west or not and thus take another hit of guilt into your veins.

I find it interesting how you equate the truth to a drug. Is this why you fear it?

[Robin Hood]

Quote: Are you telling me then that the murder of palestinians is the fault of the palestinians?

You are confusing fault with cause. Without Palestinian terrorism there would be no Israeli reprisal.

Quote: then maybe there would be less for the palestinians to retaliate against.

But there would still be the state of Israel which is too much for the Palestinians, there'd still be Jews in 'Arab' lands. The Hamas charter calls for the eradication of Israel, Iran (which funds many of the Palestinian groups) calls for the eradication of Israel, and the PLO had the eradication of Israel in their charter. Do you know what eradication means - genocide, actual full, and complete genocide. This is what you support.

Quote: I find it interesting how you equate the truth to a drug. Is this why you fear it?

I equated your guilt to a drug, and whilst I support your freedom to do both I'd suggest you go cold turkey so that you don't destroy yourself.

Quote: When you supplied them with practically every weapon that they are using. when a missile leaves an israeli rocket launcher, it is with technology gifted to them by america.

I am not an international arms dealer and I'm not American...stop trying to make me feel guilty for something I didn't do. I will not let myself be consumed as you are.

Quote: Israel is a creation of the UN, voted on by the world

It was, and yet the Palestinians have consistently and still openly call for it's eradication, and the eradication of all the Jews living inside it.

Quote: You don't think america is robbing the ME blind?

No...... how are they robbing you?

Quote: Saudi Arabia, Paternal autocratic dictatorship. Or as you americans call it, an Arabian Monarchy. But of course, would you call it what it really is? not while they're selling you cut rate oil! You ignore the plight of their people and support their government, their women are kept out of schools, beaten, and treated like slaves, all so you can pay a couple of cents less to drive to McDonalds. Haliburton was given all of Iraq's oil contracts, that's ALL of their oil contracts. Forget Iraqi industry, why allow them to get rich off their own resources? Especially when american billionares can ROB THEM BLIND


Except for the bit about Haliburton - baseless lies - none of that is theft...it's just ignorant rhetoric.


Quote: Are you telling me that Christianity is modern?

I never said that...I simply said that Islam was anti-rational. I'm an athiest you dunce.

Quote: What an anti-rational culture this country has. I don't think I have to tell you this is America.

We weren't discussing your prejudices against America and religion. I am not American and am an athiest, as am not really sure why you insist on talking about this to me. Calm down.

Quote: Because if you voted for your government, the bush administration,

I don't think the moderators will complain about this, I think my frustration is more than justified: YOU ILLITERATE CANADIAN HICK, I'M BRITISH AND AN ATHEIST.

Quote: The west has a tradition of stealing everything they can get their hands on from Islam. Be it their great books in the middle ages, to their petrochemicals today, we have been beating and robbing these people for over a millenium.

What 'great books' were stolen? Where is oil stolen from now?

[Saracen]

If you guys want to get your heads cleared up on this topic, go to the thread I started on "Islamofascism", possibly the biggest oxymoron I've ever heard of, and read the posts.

[Robin Hood]

Quote: If you guys want to get your heads cleared up on this topic, go to the thread I started on "Islamofascism", possibly the biggest oxymoron I've ever heard of, and read the posts.

I think you misunderstand the use of that term. It doesn't imply that all Islam is fascist but that there is a hybrid of the two. By the way, it would be much easier for us if you provided a link.

[Lancaster]

Reason wrote: Quote: Are you telling me then that the murder of palestinians is the fault of the palestinians?

You are confusing fault with cause. Without Palestinian terrorism there would be no Israeli reprisal.

Quote: then maybe there would be less for the palestinians to retaliate against.

But there would still be the state of Israel which is too much for the Palestinians, there'd still be Jews in 'Arab' lands. The Hamas charter calls for the eradication of Israel, Iran (which funds many of the Palestinian groups) calls for the eradication of Israel, and the PLO had the eradication of Israel in their charter. Do you know what eradication means - genocide, actual full, and complete genocide. This is what you support.

Quote: I find it interesting how you equate the truth to a drug. Is this why you fear it?

I equated your guilt to a drug, and whilst I support your freedom to do both I'd suggest you go cold turkey so that you don't destroy yourself.

Quote: When you supplied them with practically every weapon that they are using. when a missile leaves an israeli rocket launcher, it is with technology gifted to them by america.

I am not an international arms dealer and I'm not American...stop trying to make me feel guilty for something I didn't do. I will not let myself be consumed as you are.

Quote: Israel is a creation of the UN, voted on by the world

It was, and yet the Palestinians have consistently and still openly call for it's eradication, and the eradication of all the Jews living inside it.

Quote: You don't think america is robbing the ME blind?

No...... how are they robbing you?

Quote: Saudi Arabia, Paternal autocratic dictatorship. Or as you americans call it, an Arabian Monarchy. But of course, would you call it what it really is? not while they're selling you cut rate oil! You ignore the plight of their people and support their government, their women are kept out of schools, beaten, and treated like slaves, all so you can pay a couple of cents less to drive to McDonalds. Haliburton was given all of Iraq's oil contracts, that's ALL of their oil contracts. Forget Iraqi industry, why allow them to get rich off their own resources? Especially when american billionares can ROB THEM BLIND


Except for the bit about Haliburton - baseless lies - none of that is theft...it's just ignorant rhetoric.


Quote: Are you telling me that Christianity is modern?

I never said that...I simply said that Islam was anti-rational. I'm an athiest you dunce.

Quote: What an anti-rational culture this country has. I don't think I have to tell you this is America.

We weren't discussing your prejudices against America and religion. I am not American and am an athiest, as am not really sure why you insist on talking about this to me. Calm down.

Quote: Because if you voted for your government, the bush administration,

I don't think the moderators will complain about this, I think my frustration is more than justified: YOU ILLITERATE CANADIAN HICK, I'M BRITISH AND AN ATHEIST.

Quote: The west has a tradition of stealing everything they can get their hands on from Islam. Be it their great books in the middle ages, to their petrochemicals today, we have been beating and robbing these people for over a millenium.

What 'great books' were stolen? Where is oil stolen from now?

Quote: You are confusing fault with cause. Without Palestinian terrorism there would be no Israeli reprisal.
Alright let's take a look at cause, this is one of many scenarios lived out everyday in Israel for the oppressed palestinian population. An olive orchard has been in your family for hundreds of years. It is how you make a living. Suddenly the world governments decide to take your land and turn it into a country for some people that haven't lived there for 1000+ years. now, what these people do is decide to build a highway through your orchard. Okay, you lose a small portion correct? No, you lose the whole thing, they bulldoze your entire orchard due to fears that a sniper could hide in one of the trees and attack traffic. You now have no means of supporting yourself, and are forced into a ghetto built by these invaders of your land. Your children are starving to death, your frustrated, and why? because you were literally destroyed, by these people that were granted your land. You turn to a group that will allow you to strike back at your new enemies, they supply the C4, and you supply the vessel. you are now a suicide bomber for Hamas.

Don't tell me I'm confusing fault with cause, everyday the Israeli army takes the lives of Palestinians displaced by Israel. It is the fault of Israel for creating the scenario. Tell me this then, if your home and buisness were bulldozed by the people of Laos, and you were forced into a Laotian ghetto, and your children were starving, would you not take up arms against Laos?

Quote: But there would still be the state of Israel which is too much for the Palestinians, there'd still be Jews in 'Arab' lands. The Hamas charter calls for the eradication of Israel, Iran (which funds many of the Palestinian groups) calls for the eradication of Israel, and the PLO had the eradication of Israel in their charter. Do you know what eradication means - genocide, actual full, and complete genocide. This is what you support.

When did I say I support Hamas? When did I say I support genocide? I do not support Palestine. I do not support Israel. I understand both sides of the conflict and am de-demonizing the side you have ignorently chosen to lay all the blame on.

Quote: I equated your guilt to a drug, and whilst I support your freedom to do both I'd suggest you go cold turkey so that you don't destroy yourself.
Hooray for personal attacks! I am not guilty for stealing from the ME, Canada produces more oil than it exports. My conciesce is clean. Your country is in Iraq.

[quot]I am not an international arms dealer and I'm not American...stop trying to make me feel guilty for something I didn't do. I will not let myself be consumed as you are. [/quote]

fine then, do you support the labour party? becausse blair is just as guilty as Bush. your vote arms him, as such if you voted for labour, you deserve as much blame as Bush and Blair.

Quote: Israel is a creation of the UN, voted on by the world


It was, and yet the Palestinians have consistently and still openly call for it's eradication, and the eradication of all the Jews living inside it.


Yes, I get that, it was a mistake but it's too late now. They should have given Germany to the Jews, not neutral palestine.

Quote: We weren't discussing your prejudices against America and religion. I am not American and am an athiest, as am not really sure why you insist on talking about this to me. Calm down.

I never said I was prejudiced to America, I said that it was anti-rational under your definition

Quote:
What 'great books' were stolen? Where is oil stolen from now?

google crusades, maybe integers. and oil is stolen from Iraq.

[Robin Hood]

Quote: Your country is in Iraq.

You mean 'my government is in Iraq'. Since I barely agree with the idea of gvoernment I fail to see how I'm responsible.

Quote:
Don't tell me I'm confusing fault with cause, everyday the Israeli army takes the lives of Palestinians displaced by Israel. It is the fault of Israel for creating the scenario. Tell me this then, if your home and buisness were bulldozed by the people of Laos, and you were forced into a Laotian ghetto, and your children were starving, would you not take up arms against Laos?

Depends if I'd persuaded five other countries to wipe Laos and the Laos people off of the map first (1948 war). Although if I'd done that I guess I carry on in my attempts......Anyway I don't know why you are talking about Laos, Koi Hak Laos
:lol:
[quote]

Quote: fine then, do you support the labour party? becausse blair is just as guilty as Bush. your vote arms him, as such if you voted for labour, you deserve as much blame as Bush and Blair.

Are you insane? Do you think that a libertarian who quotes Janice Rodgers Brown would support the socialist party of British politics? :lol: Stop trying to pin the blame on me, I've never voted anyway and wasn't even of voting age at the time of the war. I have nothing to feel guilty about in this respect......GET THIS INTO YOUR HEAD, NOT EVERYBODY IS ADDICTED TO GUILT.
Quote:
Yes, I get that, it was a mistake but it's too late now. They should have given Germany to the Jews, not neutral palestine.

Palestine was neutral? There was no Palestine it couldn't have been neutral, anyway the grand mufti (muslim) of somewhere in the region of biblical Israel, famosuly encouraged Hitler, and met him.
Quote:
I never said I was prejudiced to America, I said that it was anti-rational under your definition

Muc of it is you're right; however it's easily one of the most rational countries on earth.

Quote: google crusades, maybe integers. and oil is stolen from Iraq.

I asked this: What 'great books' were stolen? Where is oil stolen from now? Would you answer my question, and give some evidence of argument for your answer.

[Saracen]

I think you misunderstand the use of that term. It doesn't imply that all Islam is fascist but that there is a hybrid of the two. By the way, it would be much easier for us if you provided a link.

Did I say that Islamofascism means that Islam is fascist? I meant that Islamofascists shouldn't be called that. Why not terrorfascists? Islam means peace. Fascism is evil. Why integrate the two when they both don't make sense when combined?Also, why don't you head over to the Middle Eastern politics forums and look for my thread? The one called "What's all this nonsense about Islamofascism"?