Political Crossfire Forums

[PrinceJunius]

Quote: "starving any living being to death is cruel. No matter what the circumstances."

You do understand that she won't feel any pain if she's starved to death? She'll slowly drift unconscious and die softly.

She's been in a persistent vegitative state for 13 years. Her brain can't function anymore, all her brain can do is primitive activity which Terry has no control over. It's a fate worse than death.

[iamwhatiseem]

Everybody has to remove emotions from this case - that is for the family.

We are a nation of laws...that need to be consistent laws.
Yesterday, on the floor of Congress it was brought up to bring in Federal Marshals and physically remove Terri and move her to a federal institution (Vet Hospital).

We cannot be a society where the Federal Government can step in and completely take over a situation and assume jurisdiction.

1st - this is a family matter, if that cannot be settled then it must fall in the hands of the local Government, an appeal can and should be allowed to go to the State...then that is as far as it can go. It is NOT the Federal Governments role to rule on State Laws case by case.
We are NOT a society where the Federal Government can supercede state decisions whenever they want.

I guess it is too bad Terri is not a felon...then the ACLU would be all over this...where are they now?

[Scribbler1]

iamwhatiseem wrote: Everybody has to remove emotions from this case - that is for the family.

We are a nation of laws...that need to be consistent laws.
Yesterday, on the floor of Congress it was brought up to bring in Federal Marshals and physically remove Terri and move her to a federal institution (Vet Hospital).

We cannot be a society where the Federal Government can step in and completely take over a situation and assume jurisdiction.

1st - this is a family matter, if that cannot be settled then it must fall in the hands of the local Government, an appeal can and should be allowed to go to the State...then that is as far as it can go. It is NOT the Federal Governments role to rule on State Laws case by case.
We are NOT a society where the Federal Government can supercede state decisions whenever they want.

I guess it is too bad Terri is not a felon...then the ACLU would be all over this...where are they now?
Check their website.

[iamwhatiseem]

Scribbler1 wrote: iamwhatiseem wrote: Everybody has to remove emotions from this case - that is for the family.

We are a nation of laws...that need to be consistent laws.
Yesterday, on the floor of Congress it was brought up to bring in Federal Marshals and physically remove Terri and move her to a federal institution (Vet Hospital).

We cannot be a society where the Federal Government can step in and completely take over a situation and assume jurisdiction.

1st - this is a family matter, if that cannot be settled then it must fall in the hands of the local Government, an appeal can and should be allowed to go to the State...then that is as far as it can go. It is NOT the Federal Governments role to rule on State Laws case by case.
We are NOT a society where the Federal Government can supercede state decisions whenever they want.

I guess it is too bad Terri is not a felon...then the ACLU would be all over this...where are they now?
Check their website.

I did...but that doesn't answer the question...WHERE are they? IMO if Terri was a convicted child molester the ACLU would be all over this...but since she is an average citizen, they are AWOL.

[morph]

What ever happened to the courage to die? We are so concerned with the 'sanctity' of life that we have forgot what it is to live. Being bed ridden, unable to communicate, having to be rotated every 4 hours, fed through a tube, probably pumped with antibiotics to resist infections (mainly from decubitus ulcers - bed sores), is no way to live.

Economically it is completely irresponsible and it is particularly farcical that a governor feels that he has the right to step in and make medical decisions, without going through medical school.

What the hell has this country come to?

[Demonic Spoon]

Seriously. Ask anyone if they would like to live like that, and they will tell you no.

A question for all who support keeping her alive.

Say you was captured by, say, Iran. Your government had no idea where you was, and you was in a secret underground base. They give you a choice of dying, or being tortured for the rest of your life. Which would you choose?

[Scribbler1]

Iluvguns wrote: Seriously. Ask anyone if they would like to live like that, and they will tell you no.

A question for all who support keeping her alive.

Say you was captured by, say, Iran. Your government had no idea where you was, and you was in a secret underground base. They give you a choice of dying, or being tortured for the rest of your life. Which would you choose?
Totally unrelated. Terri Schiavo is in no position to choose anything. Absent any documentation I am siding with the husband. She already made her choice before there was a problem. There was no either/or when she made her decision.

[Elifyno]

anti-bush2008 wrote:
that's right
to not be kept alive artificially was her wish, everyone should honor it

In 1992 Michael Schiavo went to court to sue for malpractice. During the trial he claimed that we wanted to become a nurse so that he could stay home with Terri to care for her. He claimed he loved her and did not want to be without her. He was awarded approx. 2.5 mil dollars to care for Terri. In February of 1993 he denied her the recommended rehab. At the same time he came out and said that while watching a movie Terri had made a comment that she would not want to live that way(on life support) and stated that her wishes should be followed. He now has a new girlfriend in which he has 2 kids. He may not have Terri's interest in mind anymore.



Quote:
Life support

n 1: equipment that makes life possible in otherwise deadly environmental conditions; "the astronauts relied on their life-support systems" [syn: life-support system] 2: medical equipment that assists or replaces important bodily functions and so enables a patient to live who otherwise might not survive; "the patient is on life support" [syn: life-support system]


Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University

Terri has a feeding tube to allow her to get nutrition and hydration. She can breathe on her own. Recently some nurses have came out and in a signed affidavit stated that they have spoon feed Terri and she was able to swallow. The problem is Michael has denied them the ability to continue feeding her in that manner. So if what they are saying under oath is true then she can survive if spoon feed then she is not on life support.





Quote:
Main Entry: persistent vegetative state
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: a condition of unresponsiveness to mental and physical stimuli and no sign of higher brain function, wherein the patient is kept alive through medical intervention
Usage: medicine



Source: Webster's New Millennium™ Dictionary of English, Preview Edition (v 0.9.5)
Copyright © 2003, 2004 Lexico Publishing Group, LLC

According to Webster's New Millennium™ Dictionary of English you would have to say that Terri is not in a PVS. If you watch any of the videos involving Terri on http://www.terrisfight.net you see that she responds to the doctors commands. She does respond to mental stimuli.





David wrote: Scribbler1 wrote: .

And how do you know this is a "liberal" judge?



I haven't seen a conservative state judge in Florida yet. A conservative judge would have erred on the side of life in this case as well.

This is not always the case as some conservative judges have seen this case and agreed with Judge Greer. One main problem is the finding of fact. When a judge finds something to be fact all other judges have to look at it as fact. Even if they disagree with it, it is still fact.



kyle76262 wrote: put yourself in her position, you are literally a vegetable.

The problem with allot of people on both sides of this debate is that they look at what they want. I would not want to live on life support myself but I do know that not everyone agrees with that. You can not put yourself into her shoes because you are not her. You did not grow up with her life, you probably do not believe in the same things yet you put your wishes into her mouth. In a case were there is doubt in what she wanted you should err on the side of life.

kyle76262 wrote: I believe to allow her feeding tube to be removed is in many ways a far tougher thing to do to/for a loved one than to allow her to vegetate for another decade or so. She will never recover.

If you go to her website you will see many affidavits from doctors claiming she has a chance to recover with therapy. Now will she recover to her self, no she will never bee 100% normal, but she does deserve a chance. Since 1993 she has not been given that chance to recover, so if she is beyond hope it would be because if the person who let her get that way. That person would be Michael.



Coral wrote: Unfortunately this is turning out to be another GOP christian fundementalist attack on the courts. Sickening to listen to the session in congress. Where's the "Culture of Life" on death row. Where's the "Culture of Life" as thousands and thousands of children die at the hands of the GOP in Iraq. Sick biblical bas+ards making politics out of this woman's case for their own political agenda.

This country (and world) is under attack from the Christian Fundamentalists. When will people wake the f*** up.?

This statement is sold hypocrisy. You say that it is sick for people to make this political then you turn around a throw you own beliefs into the same statement. So before you go complaining about people doing this, look at your own post.


Praetorian wrote: Doctors are awesome, they truly are, but they have no idea how the brain works. The brain is a constant mystery.

This is true to a point. Everyday now they are learning new things about the brain. There a new test and procedures for patients with physical brain problems.


Zangoose wrote:
Its more cruel to live her in this state. Plus the husband wants to move on but he can't.

So what you are saying is that it is cruel to let her starve to death then to give her a chance at recovery? Also if the husband really wants to move on he can always divorce her and allow her family to get guardianship over her. You may ask why he should divorce her if he wants her suffering to end. Well as it has been stated he already has someone else and with this other woman he has 2 children. It looks to like he has already gotten past loving her.


PrinceJunius wrote:
And if you want to talk about hypocrisy, when he was governor, President Bush signed a Texas law called the Texas Futile Care Law. Basically, the law states that hospitals have the right to withdraw life support if the patient can't pay and there was no hope of survival.

This does not apply to this case. You have said it yourself, that bill is for people who have NO chance to survive. Terri is not terminal; she will not die because of some illness. So before you try comparing this bill to what is being done to protect Terri look at the facts of the bills. Oh and this bill that was signed by Pres. Bush in relation to Terri S. only allowed a higher court to look at the case. When the higher court did look at the case they sided with Judge Greer.

PrinceJunius wrote: Quote: "starving any living being to death is cruel. No matter what the circumstances."

You do understand that she won't feel any pain if she's starved to death? She'll slowly drift unconscious and die softly.

One simple question, if this is true why do they have morphine ready to give her? I may not be a doctor but I know morphine is to help relieve pain.


morph wrote: What ever happened to the courage to die? We are so concerned with the 'sanctity' of life that we have forgot what it is to live. Being bed ridden, unable to communicate, having to be rotated every 4 hours, fed through a tube, probably pumped with antibiotics to resist infections (mainly from decubitus ulcers - bed sores), is no way to live.

Economically it is completely irresponsible and it is particularly farcical that a governor feels that he has the right to step in and make medical decisions, without going through medical school.

What the hell has this country come to?

First of all Terri is not bed ridden, she also has a chair that she sits in. Yes she is fed threw a tube but so are some babies when they are born. Should we kill these babies as well? If you look at the facts she does not receive antibiotics because Michael won’t allow it. Plus how do you look at someone right to live and an economical issue? How much it cost for someone to live should not decide if they should live or not. As for what the hell has this country come to, I agree with you. What the hell has this country come to when we allow someone to starve another person to death and feel no remorse for it.


Iluvguns wrote:
Say you was captured by, say, Iran. Your government had no idea where you was, and you was in a secret underground base. They give you a choice of dying, or being tortured for the rest of your life. Which would you choose?

I personally can not answer this question. This is a hypothetical question that is completely different from what she is going through. Well maybe not, some would call what Michael is putting Terri through torture.





Jeb Bush gave a press conference today about Terri. A neurologist with the Department and Child and Human Services in Florida and came out and said he believes Terri has been misdiagnosed. He stated that it appears that Terri has minimal consciousness and is not in a PVS.



EDIT: sorry about that Scribbler1 I messed up on my quotation

[Scribbler1]

For the record, the second quote attributed to me in the above post is incorrect. I did not write this.
The only thing I was responsible for is, "And how do you know this is a "liberal" judge?"

[iamwhatiseem]

Eli - you are ignoring some important facts...

The infamous "balloon" video where it appears Terri is responding to the balloon...this is a 10 second clip from a 4 HOUR VIDEO it which the mother and father tried 4 hours to get her to respond, without success.

Her CAT scan reveals her entire frontal lobe is liquid...meaning all of the brain cells are dead and has since filled with fluid.

Doctors all along (which of course is why the parents have not intoduced her medical record or her Doctors as witnesses) have said she is vegetated, that there is no hope for a recovery.

[PrinceJunius]

Quote: One simple question, if this is true why do they have morphine ready to give her? I may not be a doctor but I know morphine is to help relieve pain.


I doubt the credibility of the source you used to get this information. Technically, she can't feel pain, because the part of her brain that recieves and interprets pain is dead, as well as all her other senses.

[morph]

Elifyno wrote: morph wrote: What ever happened to the courage to die? We are so concerned with the 'sanctity' of life that we have forgot what it is to live. Being bed ridden, unable to communicate, having to be rotated every 4 hours, fed through a tube, probably pumped with antibiotics to resist infections (mainly from decubitus ulcers - bed sores), is no way to live.

Economically it is completely irresponsible and it is particularly farcical that a governor feels that he has the right to step in and make medical decisions, without going through medical school.

What the hell has this country come to?

First of all Terri is not bed ridden, she also has a chair that she sits in. Yes she is fed threw a tube but so are some babies when they are born. Should we kill these babies as well? If you look at the facts she does not receive antibiotics because Michael won’t allow it. Plus how do you look at someone right to live and an economical issue? How much it cost for someone to live should not decide if they should live or not. As for what the hell has this country come to, I agree with you. What the hell has this country come to when we allow someone to starve another person to death and feel no remorse for it.

While she is not bed-ridden fully, she is (per my understanding) totally incapacitated. Sadly, this lady is non-functioning bio-mass. She is in a nasty situation and i think it is awful. Unfortunately, she cannot function on a level without being fed, rolled, wiped, cleaned on her own, i am suprised that she is even still alive frankly, afterall bacteria and virus love this vegatative state. She has become somebody's fetish and it is gross. Personally, i think they need to let her go.

Economically it is crappy to make health-based decisions based on capital. Unfortunately, we are so overwhelmed in our healthcare system that money is now really an issue. This lady is not going to get better so our efforts are futile. If she was a quad or a paraplegic, i would say keep her alive. But she's not.

BTW, starving this lady to death, in my views is an act of compassion. I don't feel the need for any remorse here.

[Elifyno]

iamwhatiseem wrote: Eli - you are ignoring some important facts...

The infamous "balloon" video where it appears Terri is responding to the balloon...this is a 10 second clip from a 4 HOUR VIDEO it which the mother and father tried 4 hours to get her to respond, without success.

Her CAT scan reveals her entire frontal lobe is liquid...meaning all of the brain cells are dead and has since filled with fluid.

Doctors all along (which of course is why the parents have not intoduced her medical record or her Doctors as witnesses) have said she is vegetated, that there is no hope for a recovery.

I was mainly talking about the video where she responds to her doctor asking her to open her eyes. You must also realize that while she does respond it isn't as fast as you or me would. She has to bed told several times to do something but she does respond.


PrinceJunius wrote: Quote: One simple question, if this is true why do they have morphine ready to give her? I may not be a doctor but I know morphine is to help relieve pain.


I doubt the credibility of the source you used to get this information. Technically, she can't feel pain, because the part of her brain that recieves and interprets pain is dead, as well as all her other senses.

While some say she cant feel pain or respond to stimuli her former caregivers paint a different story.

http://www.glennbeck.com/news/03-24-05/CIyerAffidavit090203.pdf
http://www.glennbeck.com/news/03-24-05/hlawaffidavit.pdf


Then there is also the signed affidavit of Dr. William Polk Chesire who disputes that Terri is in a PVS.

http://www.terrisfight.net/documents/032305cheshire.pdf


There is also the article written by Attorney Barbara Weller about a visit she had with Terri.

http://www.terrisfight.org/press/BJWnarrative.html



It can be difficult to come up with medical evidence to prove a case when new test are denied. Here are the affidavits of 17 doctors who support new testing for Terri.

http://www.terrisfight.net/press/030405medaff.html

Proof and the reasoning that new testing was denied.

http://www.terrisfight.net/documents/030905denmedtest.pdf

[Scribbler1]

Elifyno wrote:
Then there is also the signed affidavit of Dr. William Polk Chesire who disputes that Terri is in a PVS.

http://www.terrisfight.net/documents/032305cheshire.pdf
I read that he had observed her, but did he EXAMINE her. There is a difference and CBS news says he didn't examine her.
I'm not arguing which side is right on this one but I wanted to mention the conflicting info.
Quote: It can be difficult to come up with medical evidence to prove a case when new test are denied. Here are the affidavits of 17 doctors who support new testing for Terri.

http://www.terrisfight.net/press/030405medaff.html
I check 5 of those links and whatever they had pointed to has been removed.

Proof and the reasoning that new testing was denied.

http://www.terrisfight.net/documents/030905denmedtest.pdf[/quote]
A legal question here. Please do not repond if you have no legal background.
Is it not within the cort's (any court's) power to order further examination in such a case if they deem it necessary? I don't think Michael Schiavo can overrule a court decision of this kind.

[Ryth]

Scribbler1 wrote: Elifyno wrote:
Then there is also the signed affidavit of Dr. William Polk Chesire who disputes that Terri is in a PVS.

http://www.terrisfight.net/documents/032305cheshire.pdf
I read that he had observed her, but did he EXAMINE her. There is a difference and CBS news says he didn't examine her.
I'm not arguing which side is right on this one but I wanted to mention the conflicting info.


Your problem there is the line........"CBS news says."


Quote: I check 5 of those links and whatever they had pointed to has been removed.

Proof and the reasoning that new testing was denied.




Funny, the links checked out fine to me. Maybe you should check again?

It seems very interesting to me that after Elifyno's post the number of people arguing in favor of Michael's decision wavered.

Excellent post Elifyno!


EDIT: Having looked through the entire thread I had to add one more thing:

This came from Iluvguns' sig:

Quote: I hate Republicans



Yay for the tolerant left! :clap:

[Scribbler1]

[quote="Ryth"] Scribbler1 wrote: Elifyno wrote:
Then there is also the signed affidavit of Dr. William Polk Chesire who disputes that Terri is in a PVS.

http://www.terrisfight.net/documents/032305cheshire.pdf
I read that he had observed her, but did he EXAMINE her. There is a difference and CBS news says he didn't examine her.
I'm not arguing which side is right on this one but I wanted to mention the conflicting info.


Quote: Your problem there is the line........"CBS news says."
Right, I should have checked a blog first.


Quote: I check 5 of those links and whatever they had pointed to has been removed.

Proof and the reasoning that new testing was denied.




Quote: Funny, the links checked out fine to me. Maybe you should check again?
I did, and the LINKS didn't check out at all. It appears you never bothered to actually click on the individual links. You stopped at the page headed "PRESS RELEASE". The links on THAT page are dead. Any other convincing "facts" you'd like to offer?

Quote: It seems very interesting to me that after Elifyno's post the number of people arguing in favor of Michael's decision wavered.
Care to point them out or should I just take your word for it, like with those links that you "saw"?
Edit: It appears yours an my posts are the only ones after Elifyno's post. Just WHERE were all these waffling people?
What color is the sky in your world anyway?

Quote: EDIT: Having looked through the entire thread I had to add one more thing:

This came from Iluvguns' sig:

Quote: I hate Republicans



Yay for the tolerant left! :clap:
Gee, I looked ALL OVER my profile and didn't see my name as being iluvguns even once. If you post to me you might want to focus on what *I* say and not someone else. I assume you can tell the members here apart.

And I've never been a liberal in my whole life. However, I've also never been a right-wing fundie neocon either, so I guess to you I look like a liberal. Nice collection of bulls**t you've presented here.

[smirnoff]

Quote: One simple question, if this is true why do they have morphine ready to give her? I may not be a doctor but I know morphine is to help relieve pain.

Ugh ... she's paralysed and cant move or feel anything, except maybe parts of her head.

[Elifyno]

Scribbler1 wrote: Elifyno wrote: It can be difficult to come up with medical evidence to prove a case when new test are denied. Here are the affidavits of 17 doctors who support new testing for Terri.

http://www.terrisfight.net/press/030405medaff.html
I check 5 of those links and whatever they had pointed to has been removed.

If you head to http://www.terrisfight.net, click on court documents there is a bar on the right with all the same affidavits. The original page I posted had working links but they are not working for me either.



Scribbler1 wrote: Elifyno wrote: http://www.terrisfight.net/documents/030905denmedtest.pdf
A legal question here. Please do not repond if you have no legal background.
Is it not within the cort's (any court's) power to order further examination in such a case if they deem it necessary? I don't think Michael Schiavo can overrule a court decision of this kind.

If you would have read the paper you would know that it was Michael trying to override a courts decision. That court case was about Terri's parents suing Michael for the right to have new test performed. Judge Greer denied the claim on the basis that there was no proof that these new test would help Terri. The last time a test was done on Terri was before MRI test were even created. Oh and please don't assume about my background you don't know me.

There would be an easy way to end this debate for one side or the other. If Michael allowed a MRI to be done then it would show if Terri was in a PVS or not.




Scribbler1 wrote: Ryth wrote: EDIT: Having looked through the entire thread I had to add one more thing:

This came from Iluvguns' sig:

Quote: I hate Republicans



Yay for the tolerant left! :clap:
Gee, I looked ALL OVER my profile and didn't see my name as being iluvguns even once. If you post to me you might want to focus on what *I* say and not someone else. I assume you can tell the members here apart.


To me this looks like it was meant for Iluvgun not you. So please don't assume that this is about you.




smirnoff wrote: Quote: One simple question, if this is true why do they have morphine ready to give her? I may not be a doctor but I know morphine is to help relieve pain.

Ugh ... she's paralysed and cant move or feel anything, except maybe parts of her head.


If you would look at the reports she is not paralyzed. She can feel pain and can to a limit point out where the pain is. Plus they hospice also gives her medicine for the pain during that time of the month. If she feels no pain why would she need to medication for the pain?

[Scribbler1]

Elifyno wrote: Scribbler1 wrote: Elifyno wrote: http://www.terrisfight.net/documents/030905denmedtest.pdf
A legal question here. Please do not repond if you have no legal background.
Is it not within the cort's (any court's) power to order further examination in such a case if they deem it necessary? I don't think Michael Schiavo can overrule a court decision of this kind.

If you would have read the paper you would know that it was Michael trying to override a courts decision. That court case was about Terri's parents suing Michael for the right to have new test performed. Judge Greer denied the claim on the basis that there was no proof that these new test would help Terri. The last time a test was done on Terri was before MRI test were even created. Oh and please don't assume about my background you don't know me.

There would be an easy way to end this debate for one side or the other. If Michael allowed a MRI to be done then it would show if Terri was in a PVS or not.
For the record, that quote wasn't mine. No biggie.





smirnoff wrote: Quote: One simple question, if this is true why do they have morphine ready to give her? I may not be a doctor but I know morphine is to help relieve pain.

Ugh ... she's paralysed and cant move or feel anything, except maybe parts of her head.


Quote: If you would look at the reports she is not paralyzed. She can feel pain and can to a limit point out where the pain is. Plus they hospice also gives her medicine for the pain during that time of the month. If she feels no pain why would she need to medication for the pain?
I believe that is debateable. A nurse was quoted on Fox early this morning as saying morphine is not just for pain and it is also used to ease her breathing. I tend to accept that as a possibility. Proof, definitely not, but the report of the morphine was put out by the Schindlers' lawyer and they have the most to gain by clouding the issue. I believe they have been less than truthful in the past and desperate people will easily lie in a case like this, wouldn't you agree?

[David]

While I agree that the lawyer has more to gain by clouding the issue it's my understanding that morphine suppresses breathing not enhances.