Political Crossfire Forums

[desaview]

Eynon,

First, Chen does not even control partliament after the Dec elections. IMO, a refendum will be easily defeated. I am in favor of a referandum. Ask Chen to organise a referendum. Go ahead.

People may want independence. But they want peace more. And if they choose independence, I am afraid I have to support war. The official position of China is that it is ever ready even at the expense of the Olympics and even if it is during the Olympics.

China will show patience. There is no need to show impatience. The onus is on Taiwan to remain status quo.

A responsible Chinese leader has no choice. It is not for his personal gains. It is for history. Taiwan is truly China's achilles heels. Once Taiwan declares independence, there is no other viable option for bringing back Taiwan to the mother land. It is end game leading straigt to war and violence if China wants to pursue this reunification objective. It will also lead straight to international isolation and bye bye prosperity. But I will say a patriotic Chinese leader have no choice in the matter.

[desaview]

Why did Taiwan changes it's mind about that?
..................................
Cap,

That is one problem with democracy. When there is democracy there are different parties with different platforms. Just like Hitler, Chen first came to power in the mid nineties on about 35% of the votes on a platform of independence playing to the hawks with no regard to history and sensitivities. The intelligent and the cautious part of society has no say.

[desaview]

.interesting link Desa, but it flies in the face of everything(well almost everything) I was taught and researched in college(by Taiwanese proffs), plus it wasn't sighting sources so, well....I'm not gonna buy it.
...................
eynon,

buy or not buy is your opinion. The moral of the story is that a lot of things about history we are sure of can turn out to be illusions after all.

More than that link , I canfill in gaps if u ask questions. There is an eye witness book with day by day details written by a Taiwanese doctor in Chinese. There are also other reorts I have read. But the Chen govt wants to change history because he has his agenda. To a simple mind, one will think the KMT govt surely is responsible for violence. I put it to you any govt, its job is to ensure peace. the total deaths runs to thousands but not 20,000.

[Pimpkie_69]

So, you think Taiwan has no right to independence, regardless of what its people think, just because it has historical ties to China?? By that thinking, Australia and Canada should be invaded by Britain to reunite them with the motherland. If a referendum was held in Taiwan on soverignty, and the people voted for it, I suppose you'd still want to invade them wouldn't you??

On why I favor Taiwan's soverignty, here is something I wrote a few days ago in an e-mail to someone else who had the same propaganda-motivated feelings as you.

I love China, who couldn't love a nation that runs over anyone who disagrees with its leaders with tanks, throws people in prison for no reason and tortures them, and threatens to invade and even destroy independent free nations who don't do the same.

Taiwan is a nation that is free and democratic, and allows people to say whatever the hell they want, even misinformed propaganda like you speak of. Taiwan is independent from China and the GDP per capita there is at least five times that of China thanks to their free market system. In China, the oppressive communist system is hindering growth and preventing prosperity. In China, freedom of speech or religion is also not allowed. Why nuke Taiwan, because they actually allow freedom and are prosperous, unlike China??? Why can't you accept their independence, and work to make China more like Taiwan, free and prosperous.

Communism in China has murdered countless millions of people, and even though China is becoming more prosperous today, it is thanks to moves to a more capitalistic economy. China is becoming less communist, which is good, but its authoritarian totalitarian lack of freedom stays the same, which is bad. In free and prosperous Taiwan, people do not fear their own leaders and government, but do fear that China will invade or attack them without justification. If a majority of people in Quebec wish to seperate would the rest of Canada want to nuke them for doing so?? No.

Likewise, the rest of China should accept Taiwan's independence. Taiwan is not a cancer, rather it is an antidote to China's oppressive and murderous leadership, and should be a model for China to follow. And if China was to nuke Taiwan, America would nuke China in retaliation, and would most likely turn pretty much all of China into one smouldering hole in the ground.

Dictatorship and oppression will not triumph over freedom, democracy, and prosperity in the end. Accept it, Taiwan is independent, and China needs to recognize this. Likewise, China needs to allow independence for Tibet, a distinct nation and culture from that of China, whom the totalitarians have wished to oppress, and even deny the existance of. China can be successful and even dominate the world economically, but to do so they need not just a free market, but a free people. And China also needs to recognize the freedom of people outside its borders.

If you still think I'm full of s**t and that the propaganda spewing Chinese government is right, read 1984 by George Orwell, a good insight into the true evil and corruption of totalitarian governments like that of China.

In fact I do love China. I love its people, and its culture, and I love what China may become in the future, if oppression and imperialism are set aside, and prosperity and liberty become the new goals. China can achieve great things, but NOT by nuking or invading Taiwan, and likewise not by oppressing its own people either.

I'm right, accept it.

[desaview]

Pimpkie_69 wrote: So, you think Taiwan has no right to independence, regardless of what its people think, just because it has historical ties to China?? By that thinking, Australia and Canada should be invaded by Britain to reunite them with the motherland. If a referendum was held in Taiwan on soverignty, and the people voted for it, I suppose you'd still want to invade them wouldn't you??

On why I favor Taiwan's soverignty, here is something I wrote a few days ago in an e-mail to someone else who had the same propaganda-motivated feelings as you.

I love China, who couldn't love a nation that runs over anyone who disagrees with its leaders with tanks, throws people in prison for no reason and tortures them, and threatens to invade and even destroy independent free nations who don't do the same.

Taiwan is a nation that is free and democratic, and allows people to say whatever the hell they want, even misinformed propaganda like you speak of. Taiwan is independent from China and the GDP per capita there is at least five times that of China thanks to their free market system. In China, the oppressive communist system is hindering growth and preventing prosperity. In China, freedom of speech or religion is also not allowed. Why nuke Taiwan, because they actually allow freedom and are prosperous, unlike China??? Why can't you accept their independence, and work to make China more like Taiwan, free and prosperous.

Communism in China has murdered countless millions of people, and even though China is becoming more prosperous today, it is thanks to moves to a more capitalistic economy. China is becoming less communist, which is good, but its authoritarian totalitarian lack of freedom stays the same, which is bad. In free and prosperous Taiwan, people do not fear their own leaders and government, but do fear that China will invade or attack them without justification. If a majority of people in Quebec wish to seperate would the rest of Canada want to nuke them for doing so?? No.

Likewise, the rest of China should accept Taiwan's independence. Taiwan is not a cancer, rather it is an antidote to China's oppressive and murderous leadership, and should be a model for China to follow. And if China was to nuke Taiwan, America would nuke China in retaliation, and would most likely turn pretty much all of China into one smouldering hole in the ground.

Dictatorship and oppression will not triumph over freedom, democracy, and prosperity in the end. Accept it, Taiwan is independent, and China needs to recognize this. Likewise, China needs to allow independence for Tibet, a distinct nation and culture from that of China, whom the totalitarians have wished to oppress, and even deny the existance of. China can be successful and even dominate the world economically, but to do so they need not just a free market, but a free people. And China also needs to recognize the freedom of people outside its borders.

If you still think I'm full of s**t and that the propaganda spewing Chinese government is right, read 1984 by George Orwell, a good insight into the true evil and corruption of totalitarian governments like that of China.

In fact I do love China. I love its people, and its culture, and I love what China may become in the future, if oppression and imperialism are set aside, and prosperity and liberty become the new goals. China can achieve great things, but NOT by nuking or invading Taiwan, and likewise not by oppressing its own people either.

I'm right, accept it.

You said:
"I'm right, accept it"

I say you are a right thinking American.

I am not an American so I dont have your culture. I am Chinese, not mainland Chinese but born and bred overseas.

The Taiwan issue is truly China's achilles heals. But if I am President of China, I will continue China's Taiwan policy. There is no other option. Views and opinions are like floating clouds. There is no permanaece. But the historical integrity of China must be maintained. The mother must do all it can to bring home the lost son. Chinese history will not look favorably on the mother if she ever gives up. Greater China meaning mainland China and Taiwan at peace and in the same family can help each other greatly and is an objective that is greater than life itself. Taiwanese will also benefit from reunification and peace and its own system of self rule. China has promised Taiwan self rule after reunification and all terms are negotiable and will not renege.

[eynon]

desaview wrote: Eynon,

First, Chen does not even control partliament after the Dec elections. IMO, a refendum will be easily defeated. I am in favor of a referandum. Ask Chen to organise a referendum. Go ahead.

People may want independence. But they want peace more. And if they choose independence, I am afraid I have to support war. The official position of China is that it is ever ready even at the expense of the Olympics and even if it is during the Olympics.

China will show patience. There is no need to show impatience. The onus is on Taiwan to remain status quo.

A responsible Chinese leader has no choice. It is not for his personal gains. It is for history. Taiwan is truly China's achilles heels. Once Taiwan declares independence, there is no other viable option for bringing back Taiwan to the mother land. It is end game leading straigt to war and violence if China wants to pursue this reunification objective. It will also lead straight to international isolation and bye bye prosperity. But I will say a patriotic Chinese leader have no choice in the matter.


ahhhh, bulls**t....look you can't have a real referendum now, cause if they did vote for independence they know that it means war. Your holding a gun to their head for god's sake, that means you truely can't get a real expression of the populaces feelings. s**t, you guys don't even run the island and your already oppressing it. Yet you b**** and moan about American interferrence, we don't have a law that says we will declare war on Taiwan the second they decide to join China.....but you guys have a law saying that you'll declare war if the Taiwanese feel differently then Beijing.
For f**k-sake you can't possibly think that kind of attitude does not have an impact on any Taiwnese independece movement.

[Pimpkie_69]

Quote: You said:
"I'm right, accept it"

I say you are a right thinking American.

I am not an American so I dont have your culture. I am Chinese, not mainland Chinese but born and bred overseas.

The Taiwan issue is truly China's achilles heals. But if I am President of China, I will continue China's Taiwan policy. There is no other option. Views and opinions are like floating clouds. There is no permanaece. But the historical integrity of China must be maintained. The mother must do all it can to bring home the lost son. Chinese history will not look favorably on the mother if she ever gives up. Greater China meaning mainland China and Taiwan at peace and in the same family can help each other greatly and is an objective that is greater than life itself. Taiwanese will also benefit from reunification and peace and its own system of self rule. China has promised Taiwan self rule after reunification and all terms are negotiable and will not renege.

First of all, I'm Canadian, not American, you ignorant fool. And you may think that China would be acting in China's best interest to take over Taiwan, but in the end, it wouldn't. It would turn America and much of the rest of the world against China, make the Chinese government more full of itself and hence, more oppressive to its citizens, and would totally screw over Taiwan too. There is no way Taiwan could benefit from imperialist authoritarian Chinese rule. You think the Taiwanese opinion means nothing, but it doesn't. And history will not look fondly on China for oppressing its citizens, putting imperialism over prosperity and freedom, and totally f*cking up its international reputation.

[desaview]

pimkin,

honestly, can u blame me for not knowing yo mama is in Canada?

The onus to avoid war is Taiwan's. All they have to do is to remain status qou and do not do any thing stupid.

[Pimpkie_69]

Quote: The onus to avoid war is Taiwan's. All they have to do is to remain status qou and do not do any thing stupid.

You sound like Hitler talking about the Jews before WW2, and how it's all their fault, not Nazi Germany's.

[desaview]

Pimpkie_69 wrote: Quote: The onus to avoid war is Taiwan's. All they have to do is to remain status qou and do not do any thing stupid.

You sound like Hitler talking about the Jews before WW2, and how it's all their fault, not Nazi Germany's.

No, I sound like GW Bush talking about Saddam . ha ha.

[Pimpkie_69]

Ya, Sadaam was evil and did murder like a million people. Hmm we shoulda just let the bastard stay in power and do whatever the hell he wanted to.

[desaview]

Pimpkie_69 wrote: Ya, Sadaam was evil and did murder like a million people. Hmm we shoulda just let the bastard stay in power and do whatever the hell he wanted to.

Saddam is a dictator in Iraq not USA. and the real truth is Saddam is not the man he is make out to be either by USA.

But all this is not the point of this thread. This thread is about Taiwan not about Saddam or the jews.

[eynon]

desaview wrote: pimkin,

honestly, can u blame me for not knowing yo mama is in Canada?

The onus to avoid war is Taiwan's. All they have to do is to remain status qou and do not do any thing stupid.

hey, btw desa, where do you live? if your don't mind my asking.....

[desaview]

Eynon81 wrote: desaview wrote: pimkin,

honestly, can u blame me for not knowing yo mama is in Canada?

The onus to avoid war is Taiwan's. All they have to do is to remain status qou and do not do any thing stupid.

hey, btw desa, where do you live? if your don't mind my asking.....

Malaysia. But I travel to China often.

[desaview]

The thing to remember when dealing with China is East is East and West is west.
I am Chinese so I believe I understand the issues more.

Chinese are not like the Judea Christians and eveangelican Christians who I think are more war like due to the habit of always trying to preach to others Christianity (and now democracy) . Chinese have no such compulsion or instinct to preach to others or to convert others. I am only trying to explain China's real desires...which is peaceful in nature.

[eynon]

desaview wrote: Eynon81 wrote: desaview wrote: pimkin,

honestly, can u blame me for not knowing yo mama is in Canada?

The onus to avoid war is Taiwan's. All they have to do is to remain status qou and do not do any thing stupid.

hey, btw desa, where do you live? if your don't mind my asking.....

Malaysia. But I travel to China often.

oh, I thought you lived in China.....

btw...Pimp, you rock!
I agree with you totally...the Iraq war was bull-s**t. Taiwan is a very, very different issue...a desire to defend democracy is something people from many countries share.

[desaview]

Eynon81 wrote: desaview wrote: Eynon81 wrote: desaview wrote: pimkin,

honestly, can u blame me for not knowing yo mama is in Canada?

The onus to avoid war is Taiwan's. All they have to do is to remain status qou and do not do any thing stupid.

hey, btw desa, where do you live? if your don't mind my asking.....

Malaysia. But I travel to China often.

oh, I thought you lived in China.....

btw...Pimp, you rock!
I agree with you totally...the Iraq war was bull-s**t. Taiwan is a very, very different issue...a desire to defend democracy is something people from many countries share.

If China is the aggressor, the new law will be called reunification law. It is called anti secession law to make sure Taiwan's democracy do not produce a monster. remember Hitler like Chen came to power via democracy with about 35% % each. ha ha.

[cap'n queasy]

desaview wrote: Why did Taiwan changes it's mind about that?
..................................
Cap,

That is one problem with democracy. When there is democracy there are different parties with different platforms. Just like Hitler, Chen first came to power in the mid nineties on about 35% of the votes on a platform of independence playing to the hawks with no regard to history and sensitivities. The intelligent and the cautious part of society has no say.

This is correct and it is why the founders set the US up to be a Constitutional Republic based on the noble principle of individual Liberty. Democracy can be very easily abused, as you can see in the case of the US. With inalienable rights it does not matter what the majority thinks you should do, it matters what YOU think you should do. You control your destiny. This is the path to a nation's greatness. IMHO.

[desaview]

cap'n queasy wrote: desaview wrote: Why did Taiwan changes it's mind about that?
..................................
Cap,

That is one problem with democracy. When there is democracy there are different parties with different platforms. Just like Hitler, Chen first came to power in the mid nineties on about 35% of the votes on a platform of independence playing to the hawks with no regard to history and sensitivities. The intelligent and the cautious part of society has no say.

This is correct and it is why the founders set the US up to be a Constitutional Republic based on the noble principle of individual Liberty. Democracy can be very easily abused, as you can see in the case of the US. With inalienable rights it does not matter what the majority thinks you should do, it matters what YOU think you should do. You control your destiny. This is the path to a nation's greatness. IMHO.

USA has no narural enemies and no historical garbage. It is infinitely easier than other nations. All enemies of USA are self made. What works for USA need not be exactly what others need.

[Pimpkie_69]

Quote: The thing to remember when dealing with China is East is East and West is west.
I am Chinese so I believe I understand the issues more.

Being more exposed to propaganda does not mean you have a better understanding of the issue.

Quote: btw...Pimp, you rock!


Damn right

Quote: Taiwan is a very, very different issue...a desire to defend democracy is something people from many countries share.

I'm sure deep down inside even France wishes to take the side of Taiwan. But China is such a big bully that France and other nations in Europe would rather just drink their wine and eat their croissants and stay quiet.

Quote: If China is the aggressor, the new law will be called reunification law. It is called anti secession law to make sure Taiwan's democracy do not produce a monster. remember Hitler like Chen came to power via democracy with about 35% % each. ha ha.

Well if you're talking about monsters here, what east Asian nation has oppressed its people for centuries, runs protesters over with tanks, doesn't allow many basic freedoms such as freedom of speech and religion, and now wants to take over an independent and free nation by the mere claim that they share a common history?? And if you're talking about Hitler, didn't Hitler also want to take over independent nations that had historical ties to Germany?? There's maybe about 1 or 2 similarities between Nazi Germany and Taiwan, but probably thousands between Nazi Germany and contemporary communist China.

Quote: USA has no narural enemies and no historical garbage. It is infinitely easier than other nations. All enemies of USA are self made. What works for USA need not be exactly what others need.

Ya, because America totally created Nazi Germany and fascist Japan during WW2.