Political Crossfire Forums

[emerald]

Quote: only they want to kill.its like the alliances in ww2.
only this time the bad guys are winning.and people like you are making excuses for the modern nazis.

please cut the crap, so israel doesnt want to kill?? 2 soldiers get kidnapped.not even killed....and israel decides an assault that kills thousands of innocent people, half of whom are children is a response that shows it wants peace and not war? and America instead of trying to fight for a ceasefire, istead send weapons and aircrafts to israel to continue it's onslaught.....yes i can see that 'they' onviously want an alliance to kill but Israel doesnt form alliances for that reason......or did you just miss the lebanon and israeli conflict, or were you informed that th only victims of that war were israeli's?? forgetting the thousands of innocent lebanese lives that were lost because the israeli gvt forgot what negotiations were...and werent reallt too freatly bothered in finding out.

the bad guys are winning....there are no longer any good guys, not as long as both sides and so willing to make the shi**y excuse that with war come casualities of war, as if the death of hundreds of thousands of innocents and the destruction of countries is meant to justify politically driven wars. dont tell me i'm making excuses for the modern Nazi's, the number of people your country has killed is by no means close to the number of innocent people killed in israel, so cut the victim crap, if you're a victim then so are those that your gvt seems hell bent on destroying, and managed to do a good job of it only recently.

[the sane voice]

emerald wrote: [

please cut the crap, so israel doesnt want to kill?? 2 soldiers get kidnapped.not even killed ???
i read the hole bs you wrote but this i didnt understood.

[emerald]

Quote: ???
i read the hole bs you wrote but this i didnt understood.

if the rest was all bs then please dont waste any more time on this

[fiction416]

the sane voice wrote: emerald wrote: [

please cut the crap, so israel doesnt want to kill?? 2 soldiers get kidnapped.not even killed ???
i read the hole bs you wrote but this i didnt understood.


Some one ban this goof - Seriously, how many retarded conversations is he going to begin in here that start & end with his ideological, nonsensical, rhetoric.

So I guess it's cool to make broad & sweeping accusations of people calling them terrorist supporters, et al....

This is obviously not a place for objective rational dialogue that explores critical thinking....

[the sane voice]

fiction416 wrote: the sane voice wrote: emerald wrote: [

please cut the crap, so israel doesnt want to kill?? 2 soldiers get kidnapped.not even killed ???
i read the hole bs you wrote but this i didnt understood.


Some one ban this goof - Seriously, how many retarded conversations is he going to begin in here that start & end with his ideological, nonsensical, rhetoric.

So I guess it's cool to make broad & sweeping accusations of people calling them terrorist supporters, et al....

This is obviously not a place for objective rational dialogue that explores critical thinking....
ban me?why?cant deal with me on your own?press ignore.dont use the all forum against me.really im flattered.

[the sane voice]

emerald wrote: Quote: ???
i read the hole bs you wrote but this i didnt understood.

if the rest was all bs then please dont waste any more time on this
i will explain myself if you answer my question.
why did you said only 2 soldiers were kidnapped not even killed?
are saying no idf soldiers were killed in the attack?i just didnt got it.

[superskippy]

Quote: please cut the crap, so israel doesnt want to kill?? 2 soldiers get kidnapped.not even killed....and israel decides an assault

Hezbollah killed more than half a dozen soldiers, wounded several dozen more, and in a rocket attack on one of our towns wounded another 8 people. They racked up a casualty figure of some 30 people. Also the 2 soldiers, I hardly beleive they are alive. Hezbollah has a horrible record with keeping captured soldiers alive, our last trade which is often so touted as an opening to say we negotiate with terrorists, do you know what we traded for? The corpses of the soldiers Hezbollah executed. We have never recieved a living soldier from them.

[emerald]

Quote: i will explain myself if you answer my question.
why did you said only 2 soldiers were kidnapped not even killed?
are saying no idf soldiers were killed in the attack?i just didnt got it.

i meant the two soldiers who were kidnapped at the start which began the israeli bombing campaign, not how many soldiers were killed during the ongoing war.

Quote: Hezbollah killed more than half a dozen soldiers, wounded several dozen more, and in a rocket attack on one of our towns wounded another 8 people. They racked up a casualty figure of some 30 people. Also the 2 soldiers, I hardly beleive they are alive. Hezbollah has a horrible record with keeping captured soldiers alive, our last trade which is often so touted as an opening to say we negotiate with terrorists, do you know what we traded for? The corpses of the soldiers Hezbollah executed. We have never recieved a living soldier from them.

is there anything to prove that those two soldiers were dead before israel attacked lebanon? did they bother finding out?

and if those 2 soldiers were killed, couldnt the situation have been dealt with in other ways? why wage a full scale war, one that not only cost lives, on both sides, but also meant the destruction of a country, it's infrastructure and it's economy. was it really worth it? when other avenues to solving the situation could have at the very least been tried first?

[superskippy]

Quote: and if those 2 soldiers were killed, couldnt the situation have been dealt with in other ways? why wage a full scale war, one that not only cost lives, on both sides, but also meant the destruction of a country, it's infrastructure and it's economy. was it really worth it?

Had we continued with full force and committed ourselves to dealing heavy blows to Hezbollah and gaining control of the field and destroying their weapons stockpiles then yes it would have been worth it. But our leaders did not follow up with the action that was needed.

[emerald]

Quote: Had we continued with full force and committed ourselves to dealing heavy blows to Hezbollah and gaining control of the field and destroying their weapons stockpiles then yes it would have been worth it. But our leaders did not follow up with the action that was needed.

why didnt israeli do so then? dont tell me they were actually bothered about international opinion, the most of important of which were backing your gvt up anyway, so if they were certain they could defeat hezbollah and regain control, why didnt they?

[skinn]

superskippy wrote: Quote: and if those 2 soldiers were killed, couldnt the situation have been dealt with in other ways? why wage a full scale war, one that not only cost lives, on both sides, but also meant the destruction of a country, it's infrastructure and it's economy. was it really worth it?

Had we continued with full force and committed ourselves to dealing heavy blows to Hezbollah and gaining control of the field and destroying their weapons stockpiles then yes it would have been worth it. But our leaders did not follow up with the action that was needed.

each additional day was costing the IDF a dozen dead soldiers, so they could not follow up their offensive.

[superskippy]

Quote: why didnt israeli do so then? dont tell me they were actually bothered about international opinion, the most of important of which were backing your gvt up anyway

International opinion and the UN are always a major issue in curtailing us, I dont know why you would think it wouldnt.

As for the reason why, my personal beleif is that Olmert was not prepared to go all the way and commit to a fullscale war. I do not beleive he intended for it to be a real campaign against Hezbollah, he spent days on an Air Campaign long since past optimal effectivness and wasted many days before deploying a ground force that was pitifully small and unprepared with the proper support to deal with a real campaign. I think he intended it to be a quick retalitory campaign of old, but could not commit to making it a military one that would have won out in the end.

One thing I beleive, is that I dont think I will be voting for Kadima again. Unless things change drastically, which I doubt.

[mendosan]

superskippy wrote: Quote: and if those 2 soldiers were killed, couldnt the situation have been dealt with in other ways? why wage a full scale war, one that not only cost lives, on both sides, but also meant the destruction of a country, it's infrastructure and it's economy. was it really worth it?

Had we continued with full force and committed ourselves to dealing heavy blows to Hezbollah and gaining control of the field and destroying their weapons stockpiles then yes it would have been worth it. But our leaders did not follow up with the action that was needed.

The thing about Israel is that it usually learns its lessons from military failures and then like to demonstrate what its learn't so theres bound to be another war soon in the next 3-6 years so I think some good will come of the war for the Israel military they can't afford to not learn lessons from the conflict.

[emerald]

Quote: International opinion and the UN are always a major issue in curtailing us, I dont know why you would think it wouldnt.

the reason i dont believe itnernational opinion would really effect israels actions is this: when israel began it's bombing campaign from about day 2-3 the UN and other countries were calling for a stop to the bombing. the UN continued to share publicly it's concern with the war, and the death toll, there was the rome summit to discuss ceasefires and still nothing changed, there was condemnation from everywhere, except US and UK and still the war continued, and did so for about 33 days, so that leads me to believe that international opinion is hardly an issue which concerns them

[superskippy]

Quote: the reason i dont believe itnernational opinion would really effect israels actions is this: when israel began it's bombing campaign from about day 2-3 the UN and other countries were calling for a stop to the bombing. the UN continued to share publicly it's concern with the war

The UN governing body that is the organization itself has no authority save those based off of existing resolutions or active mandates. It cannot do anything else until a resolution is pushed through, thus we could ignore them for a while. Our main concern was other nations exerting their own pressure.

Quote: there was condemnation from everywhere, except US and UK and still the war continued, and did so for about 33 days, so that leads me to believe that international opinion is hardly an issue which concerns them

The condemnation was not very vehement many times it wasnt even condemnation just a statement about limiting civilian losses, and restraint in attacks etc etc.

[the sane voice]

emerald wrote: Quote: Had we continued with full force and committed ourselves to dealing heavy blows to Hezbollah and gaining control of the field and destroying their weapons stockpiles then yes it would have been worth it. But our leaders did not follow up with the action that was needed.

why didnt israeli do so then? dont tell me they were actually bothered about international opinion, the most of important of which were backing your gvt up anyway, so if they were certain they could defeat hezbollah and regain control, why didnt they?
why?stupidity thats why.

[emerald]

Quote: The condemnation was not very vehement many times it wasnt even condemnation just a statement about limiting civilian losses, and restraint in attacks etc etc.

when i watched the news it was only really the US and UK that werent able to say the terrible word 'ceasefire' or condemn israeli actions in any way....everywhere else was pretty much saying stop the war now, but like i said, everyone else is ahrdly important when you have the USA and UK backing your actions really.

[superskippy]

Quote: when i watched the news it was only really the US and UK that werent able to say the terrible word 'ceasefire' or condemn israeli actions in any way....everywhere else was pretty much saying stop the war now, but like i said, everyone else is ahrdly important when you have the USA and UK backing your actions really.

Having their backing for a certain period of time for operations is important, but not all important.

Quote: when i watched the news it was only really the US and UK that werent able to say the terrible word 'ceasefire' or condemn israeli actions in any way

I'm just saying it was really rather tame for example from China: Quote: Foreign minister Li Zhaoxing urged all parties concerned to keep restraint to avoid further deterioration of the situation, expressing his close attention to and deep concern over the conflict. which is partly due to warming relations between our nations but still.

Or India Quote: "We are seriously concerned about the escalating tension in West Asia as a result of developments on the Israel-Lebanese border since yesterday which have the potential to inflame the region further and widen the conflict," they made a statement of concern and when it became fullblown they went along the lines every nation did. They all said "We condemn Israeli bombing as excessive, and we condemn Hezbollah for the attacks and bringing it about" or some variation of that.

Compared to what used to happen with immediate rushed debates in the UN dropping everything else, it was nothing.

[emerald]

superskippy, since you're good to actually discuss with, without it turning to insults or anger! i jsut wanted to ask you 2 questions, from an israeli point of view.

did it not bother you firstly, the scale of destruction bought on by israel to lebanon? and secondly didnt it bother you the amount of innocent human life taken in Lebanon because of this war?

[Venom]

Emerald
What I don't get about your point of view is that you seem to act like kidnapping Israeli soldiers is not a big deal.

Israeli told Hezbollah to give the soldiers back and they did not. Why should Israel have to release thousands of prisoners because a group decided to take two soldiers prisoner? Israel gave them a chance to return them and they did not. It's a shame that souther Lebanon saw so much destruction but that is their own fault as well. Was there not a mandate handed down by the UN to disarm Hezbollah? Yes. Did Lebanon try? Nope. So they brought this upon themselves. Also the fact that the Lebenese gov said they would NOT disarm Hezbollah during this cease fire either illustrates to me that the IDF did not do enough.

As for the IDF falling short of wiping out Hezbollah in the area... well that was cut short by Israel as their leadership tried to play a rigged game of global politics....
a game where the refs play for the other team.