Political Crossfire Forums

[mwm1331]

How do define normal?
By its deftnition ie conformng to the norm. Neither homosexuals nor Bisexuals do.
Heterosexuality is normal, deviant sexuaity is not.

[F'losrix]

Static-I wrote: mwm1331 wrote: I know its a choice becuase heterosexualty is the norma state of humanity

How do you define "normal?" Point being, you cannot prove that heterosexuality is the "norm" anymore than bisexuality or homosexuality.

Norm = a standard or model or pattern regarded as typical

In which case, heterosexuality is the norm; that is to say, it is the typical pattern of behavior expected in our society.

If we accept that definition, then 'normal' would describe something that adheres to the standard pattern.

Examining the whole of human behavior, homosexuality is not the norm. Homosexual behavior would be the norm however for a subset of the human population - those who have an homosexual orientation.

The problem we have here is the premises which posit the theory that anything which is not part of the established norm is automatically bad. It is this part of the argument that I reject.

[Kumar]

Just read the topic now; how stupid they are...

[twpdyp]

Instead of worrying about what some student is wearing in the senior pictures perhaps they should worry about educating. Worry about drop out rates nearing 25%. Worry about school violence. Worry about classroom over crowding. Worry about teen pregnancies. Worry about why some of the graduates I see applying for a job here where I work cannot even form a complete sentence or fill out an application clear enough to read. Those are the things the schools and the school administrations should be worrying about.

[Mightier Than The Sword]

ahem

Would anyone like to do a search for me on Google for Tucson High School, Suspension, and Jerry Halfmann and see if any articles pop up? I'm having a hard time right now...

[Mightier Than The Sword]

Sorry about the double post but I found the story I was looking for.


'Censored' pics may be tied to rule change

Policy shift follows teacher's suspension

ERIC SAGARA
Tucson Citizen


GARY GAYNOR/Tucson Citizen

Tucson High senior Ashley Barreda says the photograph she took of her sister was among those removed from public view at the school.
Photography students at Tucson High Magnet School can no longer take pictures of people not conforming to the school's dress code.
No spaghetti-straps or tube tops. No leotards. No swimsuits. No short skirts, dresses or shorts.

Senior Ashley Barreda, a photography student, said the change in school policy came after photography teacher Jerry Halfmann was suspended with pay five weeks ago Monday. Administrators are not commenting on the suspension, but Halfmann believes it was because of questionable photos hanging in his classroom and in Tucson High's hallways.

Administrators were concerned about photos of topless students with their backs to the camera, he said.

Tucson High is known for its fine arts program and uses it to draw students to its campus at 400 N. Second Ave. Graduates from Halfmann's program have gone on to work for major advertising agencies, at museums as curators and as photojournalists.

"The students and our pictures are being censored," Barreda said. "I can't even put a portfolio out right now because all of my pictures have been deemed inappropriate. It's really hard when you're trying to take pictures of things and you have to look at every single picture and say, 'OK is someone going to take this away from me?' "

She has three weeks to come up with a portfolio, which consists of 15 prints and serves as her final exam.

School officials acknowledged the change in policy but would not say why the changes were needed, citing personnel privacy issues. Portfolios will be approved on a case-by-case basis.

The change in policy is temporary until a set of standards is developed for the photography program, said Estella Zavala, a spokeswoman for Tucson Unified School District.

Principal Abel Morado declined to comment last night.

"Without doing any research, I would think that violates the teacher's First Amendment rights, academic freedom and certainly students' freedom of expression," said Eleanor Eisenberg, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Arizona. "Students don't leave their rights at the schoolhouse gate."

Joseph Labate, who chairs the photography division at the University of Arizona School of Art, said students do not need to submit a portfolio to enter UA's photography program. They simply need to arrive with interesting, conceptual ideas.



The pictures that Halfmann believes were behind his March 16 suspension were hanging in his classroom and in Tucson High's hallways. At least one had been on display for two years.

Barreda said many photos have been removed from public view since Halfmann was suspended, including four of hers.

Halfmann has been told that two of the photographs removed show topless girls with their backs to the camera.

"It's students taking pictures of students and it's girls taking pictures of girls," he said. "It's basically ladies with their shirts off, showing nothing.

"I've got rules and regulations on what you can and can't do and the kids know what they are," Halfmann said. "They don't take full-length nudes. They take bare backs. They take pictures with the breasts covered, bare shoulders. The normal things that kids take pictures of, which is nothing at all vulgar or pornographic. We've been doing those for 28 years.

"You see more nudity watching the Victoria's Secrets ads on TV."

Halfmann's suspension kept him from attending a competition in Flagstaff where seven out of the 10 finalists were his students and he was the chairman of the event. It was the first time he missed the event in 27 years.

Also during his absence, the color darkroom studio has shut down and students are forced to develop only black and white photographs, Barreda said.

A protest march and rally in support of Halfmann had been scheduled for this evening, but was canceled late yesterday.

Citizen Staff Writer LaMonica Everett-Haynes contributed to this article.


I'll see if I can find any of these questionable pictures, too. See if you find them so offensive.

[Mightier Than The Sword]

sorry again

I can't get my images to work. Any suggestions?

[Soldier of Humanity]

I wonder how this discussion would be different if it were a guy insisting on wearing the dress thing

[SpectreFF]

I don't see what's wrong with he wearing that. Stupid people making big issues out of nothing at all.

[shyguy420]

Soldier of Humanity wrote: I wonder how this discussion would be different if it were a guy insisting on wearing the dress thing

I wore a dress in public before but that was for Halloween. I cant believe they did that though. They should let her wear what she wanted to

[Warmonger]

I guess I'm in the minority on this issue.

I believe that she should wear what the dress code dictates. Her sexuality has no place in the argument. The school pays for the production and manufacturing of the yearbook, so they have every right to dictate what participants in the book will wear.

If the young lady feels uncomfortable with the shawl or whatever it's called, she can pull it up higher on her chest... say to her neck. I've seen that done in several instances where a senior didn't want any cleavage showing.

Seriously, though, the sexual orientation arguments and "you're oppressing me and my inner feelings" bologna has no place in the discussion. Cut and dried, it comes down to the fact that the yearbook is the school's baby, and they make the rules. If she does not want to abide by them, she can abstain from participating in the yearbook, or she can modify (i.e.- pull up) her shawl.

The school states that the men are to wear tuxedos, the women are to wear the shawl thingies. Period. To allow deviation from that by allowing cross-gender dressing opens up a whole new door... then you have the students wearing the Metallica t-shirts and whatnot. I'm glad the school is taking a stand for their own rights to decide what can and can not go into their own publications.

[Jason.Spade]

While I do not agree with the thought of limiting any young woman's, or man's, self-expression- I would be forced to rule against the woman if it was against the dress code. If it was not against a previously established dress code, I see no reason why the yearbook should do without it.

The yearbook I have shows all the fun senior photos that weren't allowed by the dress code. It allowed a sort of Senior surpremacy, beacuse they would be immortalized disobeying the dress code. Of course, pictures were still rejected, but I'm pretty sure transvestites would be allowed. I think I'll go look.

[Frosty451]

Personally I don't care if she is a lesbian or not. I don't see how it matters with what is ultimately at issue: she said she didn't feel comfortable exposing her chest. NO means NO... doesn't it??

IMHO, I think the school is sexually harassing her (not to mention oppressing her 1st Am. rights), and punishing her for not being "sexy" or "girly" enough. You don't give up your rights when you go to school.

[Warmonger]

Seriously... c'mon.

I guess I'm in the minority on this issue.

I believe that she should wear what the dress code dictates. Her sexuality has no place in the argument. The school pays for the production and manufacturing of the yearbook, so they have every right to dictate what participants in the book will wear.

If the young lady feels uncomfortable with the shawl or whatever it's called, she can pull it up higher on her chest... say to her neck. I've seen that done in several instances where a senior didn't want any cleavage showing.

Seriously, though, the sexual orientation arguments and "you're oppressing me and my inner feelings" bologna has no place in the discussion. Cut and dried, it comes down to the fact that the yearbook is the school's baby, and they make the rules. If she does not want to abide by them, she can abstain from participating in the yearbook, or she can modify (i.e.- pull up) her shawl.

The school states that the men are to wear tuxedos, the women are to wear the shawl thingies. Period. To allow deviation from that by allowing cross-gender dressing opens up a whole new door... then you have the students wearing the Metallica t-shirts and whatnot. I'm glad the school is taking a stand for their own rights to decide what can and can not go into their own publications.

Sexually harassing her????? By dictating what students wear in THEIR publication???????? My God, what a sue-happy society we dwell in. Any time someone faces adversity, they are being harassed. *sigh*

[Frosty451]

Seriously yes.

I *might* cut them some slack if they were a private school, but if they are a publicly-funded school, no way. (I didn't see anything regarding their status)

LIke I said, and the courts have agreed, you do not give up your rights when you go to school. Plus it's not as if she were attempting to either wear the Metallica shirt, or pose topless. She is abiding by the dress code (ie a tux), it just happens to be for the opposite sex. The school, in my opinion, is attempting to enforce a gender stereotype, and abridging her freedom of expression, not to mention her comfort level. That's how I see it.

Now, whether or not the school is "legal" in its dresscode, I personally think the schoolboard has it's head up its ***.

[Praetorian]

Warmonger wrote: Seriously... c'mon.

I guess I'm in the minority on this issue.

I believe that she should wear what the dress code dictates. Her sexuality has no place in the argument. The school pays for the production and manufacturing of the yearbook, so they have every right to dictate what participants in the book will wear.

If the young lady feels uncomfortable with the shawl or whatever it's called, she can pull it up higher on her chest... say to her neck. I've seen that done in several instances where a senior didn't want any cleavage showing.

Seriously, though, the sexual orientation arguments and "you're oppressing me and my inner feelings" bologna has no place in the discussion. Cut and dried, it comes down to the fact that the yearbook is the school's baby, and they make the rules. If she does not want to abide by them, she can abstain from participating in the yearbook, or she can modify (i.e.- pull up) her shawl.

The school states that the men are to wear tuxedos, the women are to wear the shawl thingies. Period. To allow deviation from that by allowing cross-gender dressing opens up a whole new door... then you have the students wearing the Metallica t-shirts and whatnot. I'm glad the school is taking a stand for their own rights to decide what can and can not go into their own publications.

Sexually harassing her????? By dictating what students wear in THEIR publication???????? My God, what a sue-happy society we dwell in. Any time someone faces adversity, they are being harassed. *sigh*

It isn't a shawl. If it is anything like what they were asking us to wear my high school year, it is a low cut blouse. I didn't want to wear it. As a result, I'm not in my senior yearbook. Not because I wanted to look like a guy, but I truly felt uncomfortable wearing it. I never wear stuff like that. You should be able to wear anything in your senior picture within reason. Like it has to be nice, and it can be approved beforehand.

[Warmonger]

I'm showing my ignorance in this issue, as I really have no idea what ladies wear these days in those photos. I went to a small Christian school, and we just had to wear a suit while the girls wore "Sunday's best" for our senior pictures.

I think that reasonable accomodations should be made for female students not wanting to reveal too much of their chest, but I still believe that it is totally within the school's rights to dictate what is worn in *their book*. The school would let her wear a tux to class on a schoolday, no problem. I do not believe that this young ladies rights are being infringed upon whatsoever. They are asking her to abide by a school rule, nothing more. If she disagrees with it, and also disagrees with reasonable attempts to accomodate her, then she should opt to not participate in the book.

[Praetorian]

Quote: The school would let her wear a tux to class on a schoolday, no problem.
Probably not, actually. Schools regulate the color of socks to avoid "disruptions". Can you imagine the "disruption" wearing a tux would create in a classroom.

[kerby4u]

simply amazing to discrimate against other's civil rights......ah well, only in the "land of the free"

[Warmonger]

Quote: simply amazing to discrimate against other's civil rights......ah well, only in the "land of the free"

Excellent contribution to the discussion. Simply excellent. :roll:

No one seems to be concerned with the rights of an institution to dictate what can and can not go into their own product.