Political Crossfire Forums

[The Councillor]

The great hope of truth and reconciliation that Nelson Mandela brought to South Africa is being broken down by the sterile leadership of President Mbeki. It continues apace with his appalling acquiescenice to Mugabe.

It is reported today that the Southern African Development Community and the South African Electoral Observers Group have again said that the elections in Zimbabwe have been free and fair.

Africa is NOT progressing at all

[eynon]

The Councillor wrote: The great hope of truth and reconciliation that Nelson Mandela brought to South Africa is being broken down by the sterile leadership of President Mbeki. It continues apace with his appalling acquiescenice to Mugabe.

It is reported today that the Southern African Development Community and the South African Electoral Observers Group have again said that the elections in Zimbabwe have been free and fair.

Africa is NOT progressing at all

:( ....sigh.....if only they had not killed Steven Bicco(sp).....

[Pimpkie_69]

The sad thing about this is not only the poor job that Mbeki is doing (doing nothing about AIDS or crime, condoning Mugabe's actions, allowing attacks on white owned farms in south africa, etc.), but that the rest of the world won't criticize him for fear of not being politically correct, and sounding like racist white colonialists blablabla. South Africa has potential to do better, but Mbeki is not helping one bit.

[Chris29]

i totally agree with you guys but zimbabwe is not south africa, it is in southern africa, however it is more commonly placed in the region of sub saharan africa. Nelson Mandela's work was in the country of South africa dealing with the apartheid, although he has become a critic of mugabe and likely will further extend that to mbeki.

however it saddens me that an issue such as this gets 3 responses while any partisan issue will get 3 responses per minute. Thats just my little beef with the whole partisan arena in the western world

[eynon]

Chris29 wrote: i totally agree with you guys but zimbabwe is not south africa, it is in southern africa, however it is more commonly placed in the region of sub saharan africa. Nelson Mandela's work was in the country of South africa dealing with the apartheid, although he has become a critic of mugabe and likely will further extend that to mbeki.

however it saddens me that an issue such as this gets 3 responses while any partisan issue will get 3 responses per minute. Thats just my little beef with the whole partisan arena in the western world

:lol: tell me about it :roll: if you had put either Bush, Nazi, Commie, or Clinton in this threads' title we'd be on page 6 right now.

btw....anybody here about Bono starting his own clothing line. The idea behind it is to produce his clothes in africa with high labor standards. I sooo support this, and if it costs a bit more, well then I'll just do my wash a bit more often. The quality of a product produced under high-labor standars probley means it can stand up to more laundry use.

That aside I think we are sunk when it comes to Africa my friends, too few of us care, and even fewer have any ideas about what to do. Personally I plan on doing all I can...I even plan on someday adopting an african child....but I'm afraid my best won't be that much.

[thundertaker]

That Bono clothing line sounds like a good idea. Much better than just donating money that will probably get creamed off by corrupt dictators who will use the money to buy themselves a personal jet......

[Chris29]

Eynon81 wrote: Chris29 wrote: i totally agree with you guys but zimbabwe is not south africa, it is in southern africa, however it is more commonly placed in the region of sub saharan africa. Nelson Mandela's work was in the country of South africa dealing with the apartheid, although he has become a critic of mugabe and likely will further extend that to mbeki.

however it saddens me that an issue such as this gets 3 responses while any partisan issue will get 3 responses per minute. Thats just my little beef with the whole partisan arena in the western world

:lol: tell me about it :roll: if you had put either Bush, Nazi, Commie, or Clinton in this threads' title we'd be on page 6 right now.

btw....anybody here about Bono starting his own clothing line. The idea behind it is to produce his clothes in africa with high labor standards. I sooo support this, and if it costs a bit more, well then I'll just do my wash a bit more often. The quality of a product produced under high-labor standars probley means it can stand up to more laundry use.

That aside I think we are sunk when it comes to Africa my friends, too few of us care, and even fewer have any ideas about what to do. Personally I plan on doing all I can...I even plan on someday adopting an african child....but I'm afraid my best won't be that much.

that bono sporting line thing would be amazing, not only would I support that anyway, I am also the biggest U2 and bono fan alive.

As for africa, its tough, personally it is my "reason for being". However I also find it very disheartening. It seems like the more you get to know and the more you get involved the more disheartened you get. One of the first steps we must take is to make people aware. Unfortunately as we have stated people are moer concerned about wether Bill Clinton slept with his secretary then about millions dying in other countries. I believe the first step we can take in our own individual power would be to make people aware of this crisis because that is exactly what it is. I remember a time not so long ago when I would be included in this very group. Was it not for my own "enlightment" I would be right in there arguing about why george bush is a wanker or why clinton is a p***k. I to plan on adopting an african child, and is on my wish list for christmas actually (ya thats right I live at home :-D )
as for ideas of how to solve this problem, I believe that for those of us who care the resources are available. My current most suggested readin is Jeffery Sachs: The End of Poverty. For those of you who don't know about Sachs here is a brief outline. He was named by time magazine as the most important economist in the world today, one of time magazines most influental people. Is currently a proffessor at Columbia as well as special advisor to the UN regarding the Millineum Development Goals. Probably his greatest work came in India where he helped bring in the IT revolution in that country as well as severe economic changes. He has also done extensive work in China, Bangladesh and numerous countries in Africa. He is one of those economists that offers both extraordinary theories and writings as well as equally if not more extraordinary field results.

His book outlines how we in the west have the possibility to end extreme poverty in the world in the next quarter of a century and brings about some unbelievable successes and failures in our attempts thus far which we can all learn about.


also for any Bono lovers like myself you will be pleased to see that Bono has in fact written the foreword to this book. (Bono was a former student of Sachs and the two have undertaken numerous tasks together)

[Chris29]

thundertaker wrote: That Bono clothing line sounds like a good idea. Much better than just donating money that will probably get creamed off by corrupt dictators who will use the money to buy themselves a personal jet......

the dictator thing is a surprisingly interesting topic. It is definitely true that there are cruel dictators around including in africa. However there is a strong argument (not that I necessarily support it) that many african countries in there current state would be worse off under a democracy. Now let me explain. In manu sub saharan african countries we see not only extreme poverty in the citizens but also in the government. These countries also witness extreme problems that require resources to be solved. Unfortunately as I have witnessed in numerous case studies the funds available cannot fund the programs needed. Thus decisions must be made on the allocating of funds and other resources. Under a democracy it is most likely that there would be an equitable distribution of funds to all important programs. Unfortunately most programs will be rendered useless unless funded properly, which would not occur in this case unfortunately. Under a dictatorship the leader will be forced to make decisions on the allocating of resources as well, however unlike in democracy the leader will more than likely allocate in such a way so as to properly fund some programs while leaving some totally unfunded. Thus the argument could be made that in their current economic state some african countries are better off with a dictator then with a democracy. The biggest problem I have witnessed with this theory is that dictators will not always make the correct choices in these decisions, i.e. money being spent on military rather than education. All though even these decisions can be debated either way

[Pimpkie_69]

South Africa is different from the rest of sub Saharan Africa, though, in the sense that it actually has potential, and it is within its power, to do much better and be prosperous. Mbeki needs to help stop crime and AIDS, lower unemployment, stop encouraging the whites to leave, stop attacks on farms, not support Mugabe, and work towards a better future for all South Africans.

[eynon]

Pimpkie_69 wrote: South Africa is different from the rest of sub Saharan Africa, though, in the sense that it actually has potential, and it is within its power, to do much better and be prosperous. Mbeki needs to help stop crime and AIDS, lower unemployment, stop encouraging the whites to leave, stop attacks on farms, not support Mugabe, and work towards a better future for all South Africans.

amen to that.....also we should be pushing for reforma in Eygpt.

chris: great posts man :-D thanks for the boy recommend I'll check it out when I get back state-side.

btw...Bono rules!