Political Crossfire Forums

[Chris29]

jehovahs_waitress wrote: Quote: well you cant exactly measure how good the UN is going because we can't figure out how many conflicts have been averted. But what is a fact is that we are in the most peaceful period in modern history, and that says something

If you can't measure it, then why are you so gung-ho in favour?
Maybe you can't measure what has been averted, but you can most certainly measure what hasn't-and there are hundreds of examples where the UN has failed, and failed miserably.
Explain by what objective measure you determine that we are in the most peaceful period in world history, that is an absurd statement.

Our only true accomplishment related to war in the last century as a warlike species is that we have not turned the planet into molten glass depsite having had the capability for almost 60 years. That is an accomplishment, but the UN had little to do with that. By any other measure- it is a failure, and an ongoing one. Nations continue to act independently with impunity. International misbehaviour/ outright aggression is NEVER tempered by fear of what the UN will do, because 99.9% of the time all they do is talk. Talk is fine, but when action is required - the UN is not the place to look for help. Usuially most of the locals are dead if and when the UN gets there.

I am so gung ho in favor of the UN because a) I have worked for them and with them and I have seen the results first hand, b) because they save peoples lives and are making the quality of life of the global community better and c) because they are doing this with a total opperating budget less than the budget of the New York city board of education. So if there are hundreds of examples where the UN has failed please show us some and I will show you not only that there are not hundreds but also that the UN has not failed in these situations. Not to mention that no one ever thought that the UN would stop all conflict. Also we are living in the most peaceful period in modern history, there have been no major wars since the creation of the UN. Compare this to previous history and you will see that we have almost always lived in a state of war, this no longer is true. But hey if you think there is an equally long period of history that has been more peaceful then please show us it. As for the statement about the lack of action by the UN that is completely false, while the UN may not launch come huge scale military action (largely because they have no military) they have missions going on every major humanitarian crisis and conflict area on earth.



One more things, I actually will admit that I was wrong about one thing with the UN, while you cannot measure its effectiveness in stopping conflict we can measure its success in many other areas:
* The UN and its agencies have improved the health of millions – immunizing the world's children, fighting malaria and parasitic disease, providing safe drinking water and protecting consumers' health. As a result, longevity and life expectancy have increased worldwide.

* More international law has been developed through the UN in the past five decades than in the entire previous history of humankind.

* UN relief agencies together provide aid and protection to some 25.7 million refugees and displaced persons worldwide.

* The UN in 1948 formulated the Universal Declaration of Human Rights – an historic proclamation of the rights and freedoms to which all men and women are entitled. More than 80 UN treaties protect and promote specific human rights.

* The UN and its agencies, including the World Bank and the UN Development Programme (UNDP), are the premier vehicles for furthering development in poorer countries, providing assistance worth more than $30 billion a year.

* The UN has helped strengthen the democratic process by assisting elections in nearly 80 countries.

* UNDP is the UN system’s principal provider of advice, advocacy and grant support for development. With an annual expenditure of about $1 billion, UNDP supports many development projects worldwide.

* UN appeals raise over $1 billion a year for emergency assistance to people affected by war and natural disaster. In 2001 alone, 19 inter-agency appeals raised more than $1.4 billion to assist 44 million people in 19 countries and regions.

* The World Food Programme – the world's largest food-aid organization – provides about one third of the world's food aid each year.

* The UN was a promoter of the great movement of decolonization, which led to the independence of more than 80 nations.

* Smallpox was eradicated from the world through a campaign coordinated by the World Health Organization (WHO). Another WHO campaign, launched in 1988, aims to eliminate polio worldwide by 2005. In 1998, polio struck some 1,000 people per day in 125 countries. By 2001, there were only 537 cases for the entire year and the disease had been eliminated from all but 10 countries.

* Every year, up to 3 million children’s lives are saved by immunization, but almost 3 million more die from preventable diseases. UNICEF, WHO, the World Bank group, private foundations, the pharmaceutical industry and governments have joined in a Global Alliance for Vaccines and Immunization that aims to reduce that figure to zero.

[Canada_Rocks]

Okay. Then it's settled. All the UN need is a testicle implant. And it will be set. :)

[jehovahs_waitress]

Here, and I'm getting sick of doing your research http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstatx.htm
That's one page of many, dozens at your fingertips.
I've seen the UN humanitarian work up close too, and my abiding impression is that the workers are caring and compassionate persons caught up in one of the most horrific bureaucracies imaginable, an Orwellian web of people sucking on the UN tit, with the odd trickle actually getting to those who need it. The cost/benefit ratio is laughable when compared to most NGOs which are run efficiently.

[Chris29]

jehovahs_waitress wrote: Here, and I'm getting sick of doing your research http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstatx.htm
That's one page of many, dozens at your fingertips.
I've seen the UN humanitarian work up close too, and my abiding impression is that the workers are caring and compassionate persons caught up in one of the most horrific bureaucracies imaginable, an Orwellian web of people sucking on the UN tit, with the odd trickle actually getting to those who need it. The cost/benefit ratio is laughable when compared to most NGOs which are run efficiently.

great link, too bad it doesn't explain that most of the incidents in the later part of the nineteenth century were minor ones (comparatively of course) not to mention most of the incidents there were in the 16, 17 and 18 hundreds, thus proving my previous statement.

As for your "up close" look at the work of the UN, would you care to at least first explain what it is you saw and then maybe we could debate the topic. And as I stated the idea that the UN is a blown up beauracracy is one of the biggest misunderstandings. The regular budget for the UN is roughly 1.3 billion dollars per year, for the worlds largest and most far reaching IGO. The university of minnesota has a budget of 1.9 billion dollars a year. Now if you read some of the few things the UN has done from my previous statement only an idiot would expect this to happen off of less than 1.3 billion a year.

[Canada_Rocks]

Isnt AMerica 500 million dollars behind in payments..I heard that somewhere I dont know if it's true.

[Canada_Rocks]

Found it. there is an acuall bill in order to pay them is installments.
They owe 1 billion dollars in back fees

http://www2.truman.edu/jprz/s6.htm

[Alexander The Great]

The UN is one of the most corrupted and stupid things in the world.
Examples:
What Israel is doing is Genocide, but what happends in Darfur is not.
It does nothing for ecology, even though they say they would.
It's being controlled by money.
Many countries get money from the countries of the Persian Gulf for their support.
Yeah, very important....
I'd vote to brake this Union.

[Alexander The Great]

The UN is one of the most corrupted and stupid things in the world.
Examples:
What Israel is doing is Genocide, but what happends in Darfur is not.
It does nothing for ecology, even though they say they would.
It's being controlled by money.
Many countries get money from the countries of the Persian Gulf for their support.
Yeah, very important....
I'd vote to brake this Union.

[Alexander The Great]

The UN is one of the most corrupted and stupid things in the world.
Examples:
What Israel is doing is Genocide, but what happends in Darfur is not.
It does nothing for ecology, even though they say they would.
It's being controlled by money.
Many countries get money from the countries of the Persian Gulf for their support.
Yeah, very important....
I'd vote to brake this Union.

[Chris29]

Alexander The Great wrote: The UN is one of the most corrupted and stupid things in the world.
Examples:
What Israel is doing is Genocide, but what happends in Darfur is not.
It does nothing for ecology, even though they say they would.
It's being controlled by money.
Many countries get money from the countries of the Persian Gulf for their support.
Yeah, very important....
I'd vote to brake this Union.

????????????????????????? lol are you actually serious, when did the UN ever declare that what the israelis are doing id genocide. If this was so the UN security council would be forced to take military action against israel. :lol: :lol:

[Alexander The Great]

Chris29 wrote: Alexander The Great wrote: The UN is one of the most corrupted and stupid things in the world.
Examples:
What Israel is doing is Genocide, but what happends in Darfur is not.
It does nothing for ecology, even though they say they would.
It's being controlled by money.
Many countries get money from the countries of the Persian Gulf for their support.
Yeah, very important....
I'd vote to brake this Union.

????????????????????????? lol are you actually serious, when did the UN ever declare that what the israelis are doing id genocide. If this was so the UN security council would be forced to take military action against israel. :lol: :lol:

When did they actually done something for security? :lol:
Darfur? :lol:

[Chris29]

Alexander The Great wrote: Chris29 wrote: Alexander The Great wrote: The UN is one of the most corrupted and stupid things in the world.
Examples:
What Israel is doing is Genocide, but what happends in Darfur is not.
It does nothing for ecology, even though they say they would.
It's being controlled by money.
Many countries get money from the countries of the Persian Gulf for their support.
Yeah, very important....
I'd vote to brake this Union.

????????????????????????? lol are you actually serious, when did the UN ever declare that what the israelis are doing id genocide. If this was so the UN security council would be forced to take military action against israel. :lol: :lol:

When did they actually done something for security? :lol:
Darfur? :lol:


:lol:
how about 4.5 billion dollars in aid, 10 000 peacekeeping force and likely to grow, how about sending individuals to the ICC to be charged so they can't continue their crimes. But if you don't think this is anything please show me one country or organization doing nearly as much.

Alexander you already made yourself look bad by saying the UN is calling the israelis actions genocide, please for your sake just give up now before you make yourself look even worse.

[Alexander The Great]

Chris29 wrote: Alexander The Great wrote: Chris29 wrote: Alexander The Great wrote: The UN is one of the most corrupted and stupid things in the world.
Examples:
What Israel is doing is Genocide, but what happends in Darfur is not.
It does nothing for ecology, even though they say they would.
It's being controlled by money.
Many countries get money from the countries of the Persian Gulf for their support.
Yeah, very important....
I'd vote to brake this Union.

????????????????????????? lol are you actually serious, when did the UN ever declare that what the israelis are doing id genocide. If this was so the UN security council would be forced to take military action against israel. :lol: :lol:

When did they actually done something for security? :lol:
Darfur? :lol:


:lol:
how about 4.5 billion dollars in aid, 10 000 peacekeeping force and likely to grow, how about sending individuals to the ICC to be charged so they can't continue their crimes. But if you don't think this is anything please show me one country or organization doing nearly as much.

Alexander you already made yourself look bad by saying the UN is calling the israelis actions genocide, please for your sake just give up now before you make yourself look even worse.

It's not enough.
Why don't you take over Sudan and cut it off?
Because this definitely DOESN'T HELP.

[Chris29]

Alexander The Great wrote: It's not enough.

You know what for once I actually agree with you, but as always the UN is only as effective as the member states make it. And we will all agree that the member states including israel have not done nearly enough if anything at all to help the problem. So the UN does deserve some credit for squeezing this much out of the member states


Alexander The Great wrote: Why don't you take over Sudan and cut it off?
Because this definitely DOESN'T HELP.

lol so this is your great suggestion, take over the sudan?????? :lol:
wow I am not sure what to say except its hard to argue with ignorance.

as for wether or not this helps, well peacekeepers while there are certainly still issues that need to be addressed have a great track record. And the aid flowing in is largely in the form of food aid to help feed these individuals in refugee camps. But apparently this doesn't help so maybe me might as well stop sending aid. :roll:

[RM88]

Canada_rocks wrote: Found it. there is an acuall bill in order to pay them is installments.
They owe 1 billion dollars in back fees

http://www2.truman.edu/jprz/s6.htm

The US should not give the UN anything because the UN is garbage.

[Eton]

The UN is the only thing standing in the way of international anarchy - which I might add resulted in almost continuous warfare in europe for over a thousand years - you think that is preferable? :shock:

[Alexander The Great]

Chris29 wrote: Alexander The Great wrote: It's not enough.

You know what for once I actually agree with you, but as always the UN is only as effective as the member states make it. And we will all agree that the member states including israel have not done nearly enough if anything at all to help the problem. So the UN does deserve some credit for squeezing this much out of the member states


Alexander The Great wrote: Why don't you take over Sudan and cut it off?
Because this definitely DOESN'T HELP.

lol so this is your great suggestion, take over the sudan?????? :lol:
wow I am not sure what to say except its hard to argue with ignorance.

as for wether or not this helps, well peacekeepers while there are certainly still issues that need to be addressed have a great track record. And the aid flowing in is largely in the form of food aid to help feed these individuals in refugee camps. But apparently this doesn't help so maybe me might as well stop sending aid. :roll:

So what's worth?
Death of Million and the UN doesn't care?
Civillians die there at this moments!
And you give money to their government, but their government funds it!
You fund the Genocide!
And you said something about the security council and Genocide.
So why to attack Israel and Sudan not?
And I'm very angry with my government doing nothing about it.

[Chris29]

RM88 wrote: Canada_rocks wrote: Found it. there is an acuall bill in order to pay them is installments.
They owe 1 billion dollars in back fees

http://www2.truman.edu/jprz/s6.htm

The US should not give the UN anything because the UN is garbage.


hey good argument :tu: :roll:

[Chris29]

Eton wrote: The UN is the only thing standing in the way of international anarchy - which I might add resulted in almost continuous warfare in europe for over a thousand years - you think that is preferable? :shock:

and thats one of my supports for it, remember however that the UN is not a world government and thus we are still much closer to anarchy then "order". But thank you for being one of the very few people to actually realize this.

[Chris29]

Alexander The Great wrote: Chris29 wrote: Alexander The Great wrote: It's not enough.

You know what for once I actually agree with you, but as always the UN is only as effective as the member states make it. And we will all agree that the member states including israel have not done nearly enough if anything at all to help the problem. So the UN does deserve some credit for squeezing this much out of the member states


Alexander The Great wrote: Why don't you take over Sudan and cut it off?
Because this definitely DOESN'T HELP.

lol so this is your great suggestion, take over the sudan?????? :lol:
wow I am not sure what to say except its hard to argue with ignorance.

as for wether or not this helps, well peacekeepers while there are certainly still issues that need to be addressed have a great track record. And the aid flowing in is largely in the form of food aid to help feed these individuals in refugee camps. But apparently this doesn't help so maybe me might as well stop sending aid. :roll:

So what's worth?
Death of Million and the UN doesn't care?
Civillians die there at this moments!
And you give money to their government, but their government funds it!
You fund the Genocide!
And you said something about the security council and Genocide.
So why to attack Israel and Sudan not?
And I'm very angry with my government doing nothing about it.

as I have pointed out the UN has already proven it does care very much and far more so then any country.
The UN is not giving money to their government, as I said most of this is in the form of food aid that will be delivered by the World Food Programme (a UN organization), the money is from member states that will fund the UN effort for things such as peacekeeping, food aid and relocation activities. There is no money going to the government.


So when has the UN ever attacked Israel let alone gone through the Security Council and taken action??? You do realize that this would require approval by the United States among other countries to actually take action. Im pretty sure the US wouldn't allow force to be taken on Israel. :lol: