Political Crossfire Forums

[Crazy_Canuck]

The current world situation seems to indicate America is begining to lose its status as the sole dominat power.

A faultering economy, a fully engaged armed forces, an a loss of international respect are major issues facing the once all powerful super power.

Agree?/Disagree?/Partailly?

[psholtz]

Crazy_Canuck wrote: The current world situation seems to indicate America is begining to lose its status as the sole dominat power.

A faultering economy, a fully engaged armed forces, an a loss of international respect are major issues facing the once all powerful super power.

Agree?/Disagree?/Partailly?
I would say that the ruling Banking Establishment, that's held power in the United States since the beginning of the 20th century, is beginning to lose its grip and its power. I believe the world is beginning to spin out of control in a way that even they don't understand or are able to control (although they are loathe to admit it).

This, of course, represents a chance -- perhaps the only chance we'll get -- for true Patriots to reassert the independence and sovereignty of the American Republic. The American Republic itself is built upon eternal principles, and as such I expect to see it endure indefinately. It will most certainly outlast the Banking Establishment that has been trying to destroy it...

[cap'n queasy]

Of course this is what makes it so dangerous, a cornered animal is quite viscous in it's attempts to survive. .

[thundertaker]

I don't think he's talking about the destruction of america, just the reduction of it's power on the global stage.
Myself, I can't see this happening for some time, it will happen eventually, but we'll all probably be in our graves when it does happen...........

[Canada_Rocks]

The american empire will fall just like any hreat empire. The republicans are just speeding up the procedure.

capnqueasy.
Of course this is what makes it so dangerous, a cornered animal is quite viscous in it's attempts to survive. ."

That's not true rabid animals are easily elliminated.
If the economy in america does crash, it wont be the whole world this time. It will be like the bum (very large bum) oon the streets that rich people walk by ant through quarters at.
Countries that rely on trade with america can go somewhere else.
Simple restructuring.
America is a consumer , not a producer.

but I digress..

"I don't think he's talking about the destruction of america, just the reduction of it's power on the global stage.
Myself, I can't see this happening for some time, it will happen eventually, but we'll all probably be in our graves when it does happen..........."

You stole my last paragraph thundertaker


Peace on earth, good will to men blablabla

[Advocatus Diaboli]

Canada_rocks wrote: The american empire will fall just like any hreat empire. The republicans are just speeding up the procedure.

capnqueasy.
Of course this is what makes it so dangerous, a cornered animal is quite viscous in it's attempts to survive. ."

That's not true rabid animals are easily elliminated.
If the economy in america does crash, it wont be the whole world this time. It will be like the bum (very large bum) oon the streets that rich people walk by ant through quarters at.
Countries that rely on trade with america can go somewhere else.
Simple restructuring.
America is a consumer , not a producer.

but I digress..

"I don't think he's talking about the destruction of america, just the reduction of it's power on the global stage.
Myself, I can't see this happening for some time, it will happen eventually, but we'll all probably be in our graves when it does happen..........."

You stole my last paragraph thundertaker


Peace on earth, good will to men blablabla

Yes America is a Consumer and what do you think will happen when countries start to refuse American consumption?

"What's the point in having this superb military you are always talking about if we can't use it?"
- Madeleine Albright (Clinton's Secretary of State)

Hopefully Psholtz is right and economic collapse would allow "true Patriots to reassert the independence and sovereignty of the American Republic". Unfortunately it is just as likely, if not more likely, to engender the rise of a pseudo-fascist state which will look to it's military to take what it needs, and guess which large, resource rich, mostly undefended country lies close at hand. That bum you envision will more likely be a drug addict who will mug you to feed his habit.

[cap'n queasy]

thundertaker wrote: I don't think he's talking about the destruction of america, just the reduction of it's power on the global stage.
Myself, I can't see this happening for some time, it will happen eventually, but we'll all probably be in our graves when it does happen...........
I meant the power of the Banking Establishment, it may signal a reduction in power for the US, but it would be a good thing for America. IMHO.

[Crazy_Canuck]

Hmm..

Great discussion! Valid points on all sides.

I'm starting to think the bid for control of the middle east is this 'rabid dog' effect cap'n mentioned.

If so, I thik the dog just bit off more than it can chew.
The current disposition of american military might would leave me to believe that they have shifted so much to one 'front' that they would be quite vulnerable elsewhere.

IF i'm right, what other tricks could this old dog learn to use?

[Canada_Rocks]

advocatus diobali,
You forge tone this about the mugger, when the victom has backup..
please see advantages to not burning the bridges of diplomacy.
It would be quite unfortunate if americas government couldnt trade on credit anymore,

[Eonve]

Crazy_Canuck wrote: The current world situation seems to indicate America is begining to lose its status as the sole dominat power.

A faultering economy, a fully engaged armed forces, an a loss of international respect are major issues facing the once all powerful super power.

Agree?/Disagree?/Partailly?

blah, blah, blah...

i've heard this over a thousand times. hearing this once again does not make it sound more true. here are couple of points that i would like to make:

1. in order for America to lose its current status, there have to be other countries equal to it. i do not see any. if you do, please tell me, so that i can show you how wrong you are.

2. economy is not faultering. it's been in the recession after 9/11 for natural reasons. this is the way capitalism works. economy always goes through a cycle of growth, stagnation and recession. it's always been that way and it is always going to be that way as long as we have a capitalist economic system.

3. fully engaged military is a sign of power and influence. any empire has always had its military engaged all over its area of influence protecting its own interests and those of allies. it is normal for empires to have numerous military engagements.

4. loss of the international respect is nothing very serious. all we have to do is to change the president in 2008. we need to elect someone who is very different from Bush and international relations will get back on the normal track. who knows, may be even with this dummy things will get better. like Reagan 1 was way different from Reagan 2, so can Bush 1 can be different from Bush 2.

[Eonve]

psholtz wrote: I would say that the ruling Banking Establishment, that's held power in the United States since the beginning of the 20th century, is beginning to lose its grip and its power. I believe the world is beginning to spin out of control in a way that even they don't understand or are able to control (although they are loathe to admit it).

This, of course, represents a chance -- perhaps the only chance we'll get -- for true Patriots to reassert the independence and sovereignty of the American Republic. The American Republic itself is built upon eternal principles, and as such I expect to see it endure indefinately. It will most certainly outlast the Banking Establishment that has been trying to destroy it...

sholtz, whenever i see one of your posts i feel very sorry for you. it is so evident that you live in an imaginary world of global conspiracy theory that aims at taking away your rights. it must be so miserable to be you!

but here is what i have to say - if it so happens that the country will fall, i hope than none of your kind will get to reorganize it. that would be my worst nightmare. people like you who are calling themselves patriots are in reality exteremely selfish and would not care about anyone's good but their own. all you want is rights and freedoms. all you care about is how small the government is and how distanced you are from it.

and american republic is not built on any kind of eternal principles. it is a myth that exists in the heads of a bunch of brainwashed idiots like you. institutional shape of the US is only one of the many possible variations and i am sure it is far from being the best one. get in touch with reality. things are much different than you imagine them to be.

[Canada_Rocks]

Very, very good repsonse Eonve. you made some really good points.

[timmtc]

The only nation with an economy that I believe has overtaken the US is China. However, that country is hardly developed, and the majority of people are dirt poor *glances at the UN HDI chart*. I remember china was in the lower 20% of that thing.

I think countries are capible of overcoming the US's economy, but they won't ever overcome the quality of life.


Just my 2 cents.

[thundertaker]

Scandanavia has higher standards of living...

[Canada_Rocks]

I'm sure you can easily see the differences between the US and Scandanavia.

[Eonve]

Canada_rocks wrote: I'm sure you can easily see the differences between the US and Scandanavia.

that's true. both timmtc and thundertaker have made somewhat irrelevant and misleading posts. standard of living is only a very small part of the story. there are so many more things that have to be taken into account.

[thundertaker]

timmtc wrote:

I think countries are capible of overcoming the US's economy, but they won't ever overcome the quality of life.


.

I was merely responding to this assertion......

[timmtc]

I'm well aware that scandinavia has higher standards of living, and that the United States was ranked 8th on the HDI. However, the United States has a much larger population when compared to scandinavia which would have an impact on the general standard of living.

Quote: that's true. both timmtc and thundertaker have made somewhat irrelevant and misleading posts. standard of living is only a very small part of the story. there are so many more things that have to be taken into account.

How am I misleading though? To be honest you don't have a clue period. Being ranked 8th on the HDI is not misleading, that is still pretty damn good. What else needs to be taken into account, am I missing something or are you just ignorant?

[Crazy_Canuck]

[quote="Eonve"][quote="Crazy_Canuck"]The current world situation seems to indicate America is begining to lose its status as the sole dominat power.

A faultering economy, a fully engaged armed forces, an a loss of international respect are major issues facing the once all powerful super power.

Agree?/Disagree?/Partailly?[/quote]

blah, blah, blah...

i've heard this over a thousand times. hearing this once again does not make it sound more true. here are couple of points that i would like to make:

1. in order for America to lose its current status, there have to be other countries equal to it. i do not see any. if you do, please tell me, so that i can show you how wrong you are.

2. economy is not faultering. it's been in the recession after 9/11 for natural reasons. this is the way capitalism works. economy always goes through a cycle of growth, stagnation and recession. it's always been that way and it is always going to be that way as long as we have a capitalist economic system.

3. fully engaged military is a sign of power and influence. any empire has always had its military engaged all over its area of influence protecting its own interests and those of allies. it is normal for empires to have numerous military engagements.

4. loss of the international respect is nothing very serious. all we have to do is to change the president in 2008. we need to elect someone who is very different from Bush and international relations will get back on the normal track. who knows, may be even with this dummy things will get better. like Reagan 1 was way different from Reagan 2, so can Bush 1 can be different from Bush 2.[/quote]


Hmm...well let me see...

1) China and India because of comparitive economic advantage and weight of sheer numbers.

2) Debt and deficit, trade deficit, living on credit.
What productive advantage is there to be had in the USA which could be leveraged to help pull the capitalist economy out of it?
The major holer of US debt is the Chinese, and I dont mean the people I mean the government.

3) Just like the Romans engaged all the invading hordes? Turned out quite well didn't it. Oh and when you start pulling troops off one from (North Korea) to put them in another (Mid East) it does tend to make you weaker on the other fronts, hence extended.

4) If you dont care much what other think dont be suprised if they start not caring what you think. Hard to pull off trade deals with people who dont trust or like you.

[Eonve]

Crazy_Canuck wrote: 1) China and India because of comparitive economic advantage and weight of sheer numbers.

a. China and India are not even nearly on the same stage of development. their economies are primarily based on the type of jobs that countries like US prefer to outsource. they've got primarily manual jobs and some manufacturing jobs. i don't think that having calling centers or make t-shirt in a sweatshop makes for good economy.

b. as for their numbers, they are very much meaningless. what good does it do Chinese or Indians if the US can continually bomb them without ever invading? it is not medieval times that we live in when the power of your state has depended on the size of your army and hence the size of your population. in our time superior technology is a much more decisive factor.

Quote: 2) Debt and deficit, trade deficit, living on credit.


c. while the twin deficits can potentially be a problem i do not see how they constitute a danger at the present moment. after all, it is the countries that lend money to the US that should be worried about that. they have already given out the goods, but they have not received the money yet. if tomorrow the US will declare bankruptcy, they will suffer much more. i think that as long as they are ready to take pieces of paper in return for SUVs, we are fine.

Quote: What productive advantage is there to be had in the USA which could be leveraged to help pull the capitalist economy out of it?

sorry, but this sentence did not make any sense to me. could you reword it to make it more understandable?

Quote: The major holer of US debt is the Chinese, and I dont mean the people I mean the government.

d. any credible source to back this up? the last time i have checked we owed the biggest part of our deficit to Japan.

Quote: 3) Just like the Romans engaged all the invading hordes? Turned out quite well didn't it.

e. for a thousand years it did. to all things eventually comes an end. there is no doubt about it. but i would say that Rome fell more because of an internal weakness, not so much from the outside pressure.

Quote: Oh and when you start pulling troops off one from (North Korea) to put them in another (Mid East) it does tend to make you weaker on the other fronts, hence extended.

f. not necessarily. i think it is rather obvious that there is no imminent danger in South Korea. hence why should we waste money on leaving there more troops than it is necessary. on the other hand, middle east is in great need of troops right now and it would be only logical to put them in there. the cold war has ended and there is no point in keeping troops in the same regions of the world (japan, south korea, germany). however new conflicts spring up almost every year. military policy should therefore be flexible enough to reflect the changes on the international arena. the movement of the troops is a sign of wisdom and a prudent policy, not weakness and overextension.

Quote: 4) If you dont care much what other think dont be suprised if they start not caring what you think. Hard to pull off trade deals with people who dont trust or like you.

g. as i have told you, things change. they do not stay the same. as the president's agenda is changing and as new people come into office, so shall the relations with other nations change over time. it works both ways. besides, the world is governed by pragmatic rather than ideological people. no matter what kind of disagreements they have had with the current president and his administration on some issues will be overcome to reach an agreement on other important issues. in some sense america is still an indispensable power in the world. without the initiative or participation of the US a lot of things will not happen even if other players are in favor of them.