Political Crossfire Forums

[Eonve]

sorry Fletch, i know that i promised the thread yestreday. but i just was still mad from the previous argument in the HQ and i did not feel like doing it at the moment. but since you sent me a PM i decided not to put it away. so here we go again.

Fletch29 wrote: 1. how will this elite seize power and then oppress or convince the "non-worthy" that this is best?

2. do you think people will ACCEPT being second class citizens?

3. if not, how will you solve this problem? brainwash, physical oppression?

4. why would this elite act in the best interest of anybody but themselves?

5. if society states some individuals are worth less power than others, is it not likely their human value will also be deemed lower, thus allowing society to abuse and exploit these individuals?

these are some very good questions and i will have to think a lot about them. but here is what i've got so far.

1. i do not know the answer to that one yet. as i have said before, i don't have a complete, comprehensive system that would allow me to easily respond to every question. i deal with matters on an ad-hoc basis. but i will think about it.

2. people are becoming increasingly apolitical. they may not even notice the difference. but i think that everything depends on how we set it up and how we frame the issue. if we show it to them from the right perspective, they may not even feel like second class citizen. there may be a way of maintaining an illusion of equality. not that they really will be inequal as you try to suggest, it's just that they may perceive to be unequal and that is undesirable. we still may create an illusion of a representative democracy by allowing some kind of election, but restricting the franchise to certain groups of population. or we can originally leave them local elections and increase the power of local governments in exachange for some nation-level changes. then we can proceed to curb the local power and evetually get rid of local elections also - or at least restrict the franchise there as much as possible.
again, these are just some thoughts that i came up in the last 15 or so minutes.

3. no brainwashing or physical oppression. i have an aversion to this kind of stuff, but if things go to bad, there may be a chance that we will have to do something that i would not particularly like. it's just like Robespierre. he did not want to institute the terror, but he had to do it to save the republic.

4. i think that i have already adressed this issue before. it's called the magical power of education. no person with a proper education will ever turn into a selfish bastard. studying of social sciences provides us with a pretty good antidote to this kind of behavior. coupled with exposure to the world's problems and human suffering i think it will be a very good deterrent on the level of consciousness for people to act solely out of their own interest. remember, it is the best of the best that i am talking about, not just some stupid average people.

5. i guess it all depends on what kind of society it is and who is in charge of it. in my type of society i don't see it happenning. but again, i cannot say for sure. it has never happened and i have no factual data to work with to provide you with a firm proof.

so how's that for the beginning?

[Fletch29]

some more:

6. why would you/this elite be the most fit to rule? your reasoning is perfect for setting oneself up for violent conflict, as you with your oppression of the "stupid" cannot be as inconsistent as to claim all "non-stupid" are equals - there will inevitably be "non-stupids" arguing the same way, claiming themselves as having bigger value within the elite, to grab even more power.

7. if we all could be exactly as educated and intelligent, would we all not be this "elite" of yours? so why not work toward THIS goal instead of advocating a system where the segregation in power between "stupid" and "non-stupid" individuals perpetuates itself?

8. what do you feel about the capitalist conflict? what do you think about class conflict, as you are de facto advocating an openly classdivided society?

9. "competence" is subjective. those who will then define what "competence/intelligence" is, are bound to be not just subjective, but biased as there is power to gain from the choice

10. there will always be people that have a harder time in school, due to personal problems, dyslexia, etc. should these people be denied education instead of getting extra help?

11. do you find intelligence to be a question of only heritage? do you not see the overwhelming risk of your system perpetuating "stupidity"?

[Fletch29]

its good thanks for answering my questions

[Eonve]

i would love to talk about all of this, but it's time to sleep. i will answer your questions tomorrow morning. thanks for asking though.

[perpetrator]

all those questions were questions i asked you which you did not answer the first time around. but after reading the answers, i find no point whatsoever in even arguing with you as you seem utterly blind for the logical holes pointed out to you and thus use the exact same fallacy to cover them up. i hope somebody finds it entertaining to debunk your argumentation so these views will not stand uncontradicted.

[Achilles The Myrmidon]

My friend Eonve here is a list of countries with your dream system of rule:
China,North Korea,Vietnam,Cuba,Mongolia
I hope u enjoy the country of your choice when u moved there and i also hope that u will be part of the elite.Because if u are not....f**k IT.

[Eonve]

perpetrator wrote: all those questions were questions i asked you which you did not answer the first time around. but after reading the answers, i find no point whatsoever in even arguing with you as you seem utterly blind for the logical holes pointed out to you and thus use the exact same fallacy to cover them up. i hope somebody finds it entertaining to debunk your argumentation so these views will not stand uncontradicted.

i told you, perpetrator, i am not interested in talking to you. would you please leave me alone. you just don't get it and that's all. you are stuck with your system of prejudices, you cannot stop making your stupid accusations and i despise you. if i was ever to govern, you would be the first one to get brainwashed or sent to a prison camp to labor for the good of society instead of perpetuating your lies and hypocrisy. i had enough of you. good bye.

achilles the murmidone wrote:
My friend Eonve here is a list of countries with your dream system of rule:
China,North Korea,Vietnam,Cuba,Mongolia
I hope u enjoy the country of your choice when u moved there and i also hope that u will be part of the elite.Because if u are not....f**k IT.

so substantial argument, no evidence whatsoever - i see you did not change much since we talked last time, achilles. you don't know anything about the matter of our discussion, but as always you interfere to make one of your meaningless statements. i am getting quite tired of you. good bye to you also.

[Eonve]

fletch, i hope you have read the thread on the Radical HQ. cause i talked a lot about the questions that you have asked. you know, i don't feel like retyping few pages of substantial argument. so could you please go to that thread and read again the parts that pertain to the questions that you asked. i would copy my answers here if i had access, but i don't anymore.

as for some new questions here's what i think.

Quote: 10. there will always be people that have a harder time in school, due to personal problems, dyslexia, etc. should these people be denied education instead of getting extra help?


no one is going to deny the primary and secondary education to anyone. but on the university level i believe that we need to have a more serious approach. i would love to give higher education to everyone, but i do not feel like wasting money on those who don't deserve it. in order for education to be beneficial, one must desire it. if we send everyone to university without any regard for previous academic history and personal behavior, it's going to be a tremendous waste of money. those people who need help will get it, but those people who blew their chance because they did not care deserve what they get.

there is always a question, a choice between mercy and justice. i would like to give them both to people. but if i error, i prefer to error on the side of justice and set things right, even if it is going to hurt some people.

Quote: 11. do you find intelligence to be a question of only heritage? do you not see the overwhelming risk of your system perpetuating "stupidity"?

i do not find intelligence to be a question of heritage only. of course, there heritage has a place. i have no intention of denying genetical evidence. but i think that intelligence is a matter of choice. some people choose to be more intelligent than others by studying harder, reading more, thinking more. some people persist in developing their intellectual side. others prefer to spend their life in endless parties, devoting themselves to entertainment. well, it is a choice and i think that everyone should get the consequence of their choice. if you make the right choice, there is not a chance of you being excluded from what you like to call "elite", unless there is some biological/genetical reason. if you choose otherwise, it's no one's fault, but yours. people should be responsible for their own doings. and i have no intention to abolish this responsibility.

Quote: 9. "competence" is subjective. those who will then define what "competence/intelligence" is, are bound to be not just subjective, but biased as there is power to gain from the choice


yes, competence is subjective. but you can go back and see the list of criteria, albeit short and incomplete, that i have posted on the previous thread. i think that it somewhat explains how this competence can be measured and how people can be chosen.

[Diogenes]

Eonve wrote: 2. people are becoming increasingly apolitical. they may not even notice the difference. but i think that everything depends on how we set it up and how we frame the issue. if we show it to them from the right perspective, they may not even feel like second class citizen. The Dems have tried that very approach in the last two elections, and failed.

Quote: 3. no brainwashing or physical oppression. i have an aversion to this kind of stuff, but if things go to bad, there may be a chance that we will have to do something that i would not particularly like. it's just like Robespierre. he did not want to institute the terror, but he had to do it to save the republic. Ugh! Do you then think the Reign Of Terror saved the French republic?

Quote: 4. i think that i have already adressed this issue before. it's called the magical power of education. no person with a proper education will ever turn into a selfish bastard. Is there any historical precedent for that statement? How do you define "proper education"?? Has anyone ever had one?

Quote: (4 continued)...remember, it is the best of the best that i am talking about, not just some stupid average people. Does that mean you think "average people" are too stupid to conduct their own lives?

[Eonve]

Diogenes wrote: The Dems have tried that very approach in the last two elections, and failed.


that means that they did not try hard enough, or chose the wrong way to frame the issues. :wink: i don't want to start this conversation over again, but the 2000 election is highly questionable and if i were you, i would not bring it up to prove the point. :lol:

Quote: Ugh! Do you then think the Reign Of Terror saved the French republic?


Terror has saved the republic from the external invaders. it is true though that Terror failed against internal weakness. but next time around we can try to improve on the previous experience and make it work. :-D

Quote: Is there any historical precedent for that statement? How do you define "proper education"?? Has anyone ever had one?


now, tell me please, what kind of historical precendent are you looking for? proper education should include not just professional training, but subjects that would educate people on the art of human association, value of human life and dignity of human nature. i think that people study too much math and physics in college these days, and not enough of social sciences and humanities. yes, a lot of people had and have a very good, proper education. that is why we still have good people in the society even though their number is continually shrinking.

Quote: Does that mean you think "average people" are too stupid to conduct their own lives?

they may be able to conduct their own lives, and they may not. but i would not trust them my life and the life of society as a whole. and that's what we are basically doing now - trusting all kinds of people to make decisions for the society as a whole. i don't see anything good coming out of it so far.

[Achilles The Myrmidon]

U are mad as hell eonve my friend.I hope u don't start talking to your self and die alone and miserable like some of your idols.Goodbye to u too.
PS Just a last question?What makes u thing that u are part of the elite?

[perpetrator]

Eonve wrote: i told you, perpetrator, i am not interested in talking to you. would you please leave me alone. you just don't get it and that's all. you are stuck with your system of prejudices, you cannot stop making your stupid accusations and i despise you. if i was ever to govern, you would be the first one to get brainwashed or sent to a prison camp to labor for the good of society instead of perpetuating your lies and hypocrisy. i had enough of you. good bye.

the questions fletch pasted are mine, so i have an interest in seeing them answered without you running away because i'm "accusing" you of anything or because "it's time to sleep".

all your answers are either you don't know the full picture yet, or the elite will be intelligent enough to avoid those problems. this is a major logical fallacy as points 4, 6, 7, 9 and 11 question the basis of this solution - thus you can't use them as an answer until you've shown an argument rebutting them.

this is a grand example:
Eonve wrote: if i was ever to govern, you would be the first one to get brainwashed or sent to a prison camp to labor for the good of society instead of perpetuating your lies and hypocrisy.

but if i in turn find you to have mediocre intelligence at best, how will we settle who will be in the camp and who will be in the elite? since we can't have votes as this system opposes democracy... IQ tests? physical struggle? i guess argumentation is out of the question as you seem utterly unable to rebut any arguments in any logical manner.

and then, how about whether we'd work for everybody's best interest or not? hitler was a genius in his way, as was dr mengele, as have many oppressive tyrants been. you would be a prime example - how can you work in the best interest of the people you are governing as you have such contempt for them?

you seem to seriously believe you are intelligent above average. so prove it then, if you are smarter than me why not answer my arguments?

[Eonve]

perpetrator wrote:
the questions fletch pasted are mine, so i have an interest in seeing them answered without you running away because i'm "accusing" you of anything or because "it's time to sleep".

all your answers are either you don't know the full picture yet, or the elite will be intelligent enough to avoid those problems. this is a major logical fallacy as points 4, 6, 7, 9 and 11 question the basis of this solution - thus you can't use them as an answer until you've shown an argument rebutting them.

i've got a question for you, perpetrator. CAN YOU READ? does not seem so. i told Fletch that i have answered questions 6,7,8 on the thread in your HQ. i then have answered questions 9,10,11. and i hvae answered questiosn 4 in my very first post on this thread. i hope that i put it simple enough and you can udnerstand it. and i did not run away. it was 1:35 in the morning and i had finals that day. i think this reason is good enough to put away the discussion for one day. and afterwards i adressed the questions that he brought up.

Quote: but if i in turn find you to have mediocre intelligence at best, how will we settle who will be in the camp and who will be in the elite? since we can't have votes as this system opposes democracy... IQ tests? physical struggle? i guess argumentation is out of the question as you seem utterly unable to rebut any arguments in any logical manner.

come on, perpetrator. you know it, but you just don't feel like admitting it. i am smarter than you are. the only reason you can think that i have a mediocre intelligence is because you are prejudiced.

Quote: and then, how about whether we'd work for everybody's best interest or not? hitler was a genius in his way, as was dr mengele, as have many oppressive tyrants been. you would be a prime example - how can you work in the best interest of the people you are governing as you have such contempt for them?

what is it? genius in his own kind? is it one of your euphemisms for a crazy bastard who slaughtered millions of people? i can very well work for the good of others. i find a lot of pleasure in doing so. and it is not contempt that i have. this thing is called pity. i see humans and i pity them for what they are. i pity them because of how stupid and incapable they are. that is why i would relieve them of the burden of self-governance to bring them the age of unprecedented peace and prosperity that they themselves can never attain.

you know, i can give you a piece of advice. you should read Dostoyevsky. Brothers Karamazov, for example. i am sure that your view of things can change a lot.

[perpetrator]

Eonve wrote: i've got a question for you, perpetrator. CAN YOU READ? does not seem so. i told Fletch that i have answered questions 6,7,8 on the thread in your HQ. i then have answered questions 9,10,11. and i hvae answered questiosn 4 in my very first post on this thread.

no, you did not. your reply was that you only have a framework and that all these points are just "details". also in your answer to #4 here, you claimed that "no person with proper education can turn into a selfish bastard". exactly what kind of argument is that? where is the proof? i know countless numbers of well-educated people that are selfish. just because you FEEL something is in a certain way, it does not PROVE anything.

you also added: "emember, it is the best of the best that i am talking about, not just some stupid average people". once again, you CANNOT use that as a logical argument for #4 before you've settled #4! if you have ever taken a philosophy class, you might have come across something called "circular reasoning"? why would these "best of the best" act for everybody's best interest? also, why would the elite be comprised of these best of the best - who would choose them? how in the whole world can that choice be objective? what is to prevent the intelligentia from being thrown in the camps you are planning to throw me in as a consequence of the present elite wanting to hold on to power by silencing dissent?

your argument, and not to mention your argumentation has so many holes i am starting to wonder whether you are even capable of understanding that 2+2 isn't 5.

Eonve wrote: come on, perpetrator. you know it, but you just don't feel like admitting it. i am smarter than you are. the only reason you can think that i have a mediocre intelligence is because you are prejudiced.

whatever makes you sleep good at night, kiddo.

Eonve wrote: you know, i can give you a piece of advice. you should read Dostoyevsky. Brothers Karamazov, for example. i am sure that your view of things can change a lot.

i've raid it, thanks. in russian actually. you should really read a book, i'm sure it will be a very enlightening experience for you.

[Diogenes]

Eonve wrote: that means that they did not try hard enough, or chose the wrong way to frame the issues.
I vote for the latter. :lol:

Quote: Terror has saved the republic from the external invaders. it is true though that Terror failed against internal weakness. but next time around we can try to improve on the previous experience and make it work.
Does that mean you approve of terror as a political tactic?

Quote: now, tell me please, what kind of historical precendent are you looking for? proper education should include not just professional training, but subjects that would educate people on the art of human association, value of human life and dignity of human nature. i think that people study too much math and physics in college these days, and not enough of social sciences and humanities. yes, a lot of people had and have a very good, proper education. that is why we still have good people in the society even though their number is continually shrinking.
I take that to mean that a "proper education" only produces people who agree with you. Am I wrong?

Quote: they may be able to conduct their own lives, and they may not. but i would not trust them my life and the life of society as a whole. and that's what we are basically doing now - trusting all kinds of people to make decisions for the society as a whole. i don't see anything good coming out of it so far.
It seems to me that the collective judgement of the people has worked pretty well. Otherwise, how do you explain the fact that life is pretty good in the US compared to most other parts of the world?

[Eonve]

Diogenes wrote:
Does that mean you approve of terror as a political tactic?

i would not like to use it, but in some exceptional circumstance, it is the only possible way.

Quote: I take that to mean that a "proper education" only produces people who agree with you. Am I wrong?

not really. in order for me to think that people are smart, intelligent and had a proper education they don't have to agree with me. in fact if they always did, it would be too boring and i would not like it. proper education has to teach them the right values and the ability to think critically, question things, pose themselves questions and look for solutions that would provide for the greater good of humanity as a whole, not just for some group of people.

Quote: It seems to me that the collective judgement of the people has worked pretty well. Otherwise, how do you explain the fact that life is pretty good in the US compared to most other parts of the world?

the here is comparison. as you have pointed out the life is good compared to the rest of the world. it's not good in absolute form, it's good only in comparative. you also should not forget the reasons why it is so. the life is worse in the rest of the world because the first world countries exploited the rest to have the level of life they know enjoy. and it was not the judgement of the people that was the reason for such exploitation.

[Diogenes]

Eonve wrote: in order for me to think that people are smart, intelligent and had a proper education they don't have to agree with me. in fact if they always did, it would be too boring and i would not like it. proper education has to teach them the right values and the ability to think critically, question things, pose themselves questions and look for solutions that would provide for the greater good of humanity as a whole, not just for some group of people.
And who is to be the arbiter of whether others have "right values" and can "think critically" ?? You?

I can see where representative government must be very frustrating for those who are convinced their own superiority.

[JRM4833]

Eonve wrote: perpetrator wrote: all those questions were questions i asked you which you did not answer the first time around. but after reading the answers, i find no point whatsoever in even arguing with you as you seem utterly blind for the logical holes pointed out to you and thus use the exact same fallacy to cover them up. i hope somebody finds it entertaining to debunk your argumentation so these views will not stand uncontradicted.

i told you, perpetrator, i am not interested in talking to you. would you please leave me alone. you just don't get it and that's all. you are stuck with your system of prejudices, you cannot stop making your stupid accusations and i despise you. if i was ever to govern, you would be the first one to get brainwashed or sent to a prison camp to labor for the good of society instead of perpetuating your lies and hypocrisy. i had enough of you. good bye.

So this is what people do when they can't keep up huh? They ask other posters to leave them alone? Don't like an opinion so you close your ears to it? :roll:

[DavidXV]

Eonve wrote: Diogenes wrote:
Does that mean you approve of terror as a political tactic?

i would not like to use it, but in some exceptional circumstance, it is the only possible way.
And what are these exceptional circumstances... would it be when someone has superior intellect and superior debating skills and won't just go away and leave you alone? Who gets to decide when it's OK?... Some irrational hotheaded fool?

[d_the_sandman]

FrankMann wrote: Eonve wrote: Diogenes wrote:
Does that mean you approve of terror as a political tactic?

i would not like to use it, but in some exceptional circumstance, it is the only possible way.
And what are these exceptional circumstances... would it be when someone has superior intellect and superior debating skills and won't just go away and leave you alone? Who gets to decide when it's OK?... Some irrational hotheaded fool?

Damn Eonve...looks like youre not getting a lot of support from this forum for your "final solution". But don't worry...we're just all too stupid to see what you see, oh great one. You don't have to respond intelligently if you don't want to.