Political Crossfire Forums

[shamus11]

AIDS

By

James Bredin

AIDS is a pandemic of global proportions,
Big words that sends some societies into contortions,
There is no cure as millions die from this awful curse,
While do-gooders come out of the woodwork and make it worse.

Because they can get some victims to live much longer,
Therefore those who have the disease are bigger and stronger,
Excited social workers publish this as a near cure,
But this enthusiasm causes disease to endure.

Because those who are kept alive with this vaccine
Still carry the deadly virus that can’t be seen,
And they can still pass it on to many others,
As the disease spreads to mothers, sisters, brothers.

So they claim this disease needs much more finances,
As they at the UN pompously proclaim in prances,
As they allege they have the answers so send lots of money,
And this, my dear friend, is anything but funny.

Friday, December 10, 2004

http://jamesbredin0.tripod.com/numberfourteen/id12.html

[Voice of Reason]

Quote: Is the UN responsible for the spread of AIDS?

No, people with AIDS having unprotected sex is responsible for spreading AIDS.

[Nico]

Well this analogy, shamus 11, is tragic. I see only the hard nosed politics of the death march in it. It implies that some people may be worth more than others. I agree with Voice of reason.

[cap'n queasy]

Who knows, though?
A lot of the countries you see pictures of the people getting vaccinated by UN workers have AIDS rates up to 95% of the population. I doubt the whole nation is having promiscuous unprotected sex.
95% of the population? Hard to see that happening.
It seems a little racist to to say that, to me.

[Nico]

cap'n queasy wrote: Who knows, though?
A lot of the countries you see pictures of the people getting vaccinated by UN workers have AIDS rates up to 95% of the population. I doubt the whole nation is having promiscuous unprotected sex.
95% of the population? Hard to see that happening.
It seems a little racist to to say that, to me.

I'm not quite sure of your meaning regards racism, Cap.

The UN is a convenient whipping boy, [you know I'm on a UN defending binge at the mo' :P ] while some governments such as South Africa, have even denied that HIV causes AIDs until very recently. Individual government must bear responsibility, as UN advice is only ever that...advice.
These people who are suffering cannot become un-infected so the question of the virus free is always "why don't we cut them loose to reduce risk to us?" -it's like throwing the wounded from a ship to make life on board less messy.

I say front up, do what you can to make their lives worthwhile, there are responsibilities that come with being honourable humans.
Quarantine [international travel] if you must, test, educate, protect, but witholding care is immoral IMO

[cap'n queasy]

Quote:
I'm not quite sure of your meaning regards racism, Cap.
That black people are promiscous.
I just don't see how 95% percent of a counties population could sexually promiscous. It doesn't make sense to me.

[majestic]

I hear tribal doctors can heal AIDS. Let them!

[black noise]

So those with AIDS should not be helped so that they die quickly? I see reason in that, but it's kinda cold.

The solution isn't in letting the AIDS sufferers die quickly but in teaching them to be more careful. And queasy, the 95% figure can also be attributed to women with AIDS having many kids. After one or two generations you get a lot of kids with AIDS.

[majestic]

black noise wrote: So those with AIDS should not be helped so that they die quickly? I see reason in that, but it's kinda cold.

No, I was making a random reference to a picture of a protest by tribal doctors who wanted governmental or UN recognition of their "healing" methods (with regards to AIDS) that I've seen in the news recently.

Quote: The solution isn't in letting the AIDS sufferers die quickly but in teaching them to be more careful. And queasy, the 95% figure can also be attributed to women with AIDS having many kids. After one or two generations you get a lot of kids with AIDS.

Nevermind that it doesn't only spread through sexual intercourse. There's still the matter of contact with infected blood (this is actually how babies get infected). Well, and the theory that HIV is a mutated version of SIV - if true (I haven't followed the whole deal for quite a while now) it won't end until SIV carriers (simians, duh!) are still hunted.

[Chris29]

cap'n queasy wrote: Who knows, though?
A lot of the countries you see pictures of the people getting vaccinated by UN workers have AIDS rates up to 95% of the population. I doubt the whole nation is having promiscuous unprotected sex.
95% of the population? Hard to see that happening.
It seems a little racist to to say that, to me.

remember as it is currently there is a 4% anti retroviral drug availability which lessens the effects of AIDS once you have them, luckily though no state has a 95% prevalance rate, the highest prevalence rate is currently Zimbabwe with roughly 30%

[Canada_Rocks]

shamus11 wrote: AIDS

By

James Bredin

AIDS is a pandemic of global proportions,
Big words that sends some societies into contortions,
There is no cure as millions die from this awful curse,
While do-gooders come out of the woodwork and make it worse.

Because they can get some victims to live much longer,
Therefore those who have the disease are bigger and stronger,
Excited social workers publish this as a near cure,
But this enthusiasm causes disease to endure.

Because those who are kept alive with this vaccine
Still carry the deadly virus that can’t be seen,
And they can still pass it on to many others,
As the disease spreads to mothers, sisters, brothers.

So they claim this disease needs much more finances,
As they at the UN pompously proclaim in prances,
As they allege they have the answers so send lots of money,
And this, my dear friend, is anything but funny.

Friday, December 10, 2004

http://jamesbredin0.tripod.com/numberfourteen/id12.html

Okay, I only need to see flying elephants and then I can safely say "I have see it all"

[jehovahs_waitress]

Quote: Who knows, though?
A lot of the countries you see pictures of the people getting vaccinated by UN workers have AIDS rates up to 95% of the population. I doubt the whole nation is having promiscuous unprotected sex.
95% of the population? Hard to see that happening.
It seems a little racist to to say that, to me.
This is anecdotal and a couple of years ago, but I recall a Canadian epidemiologist peaking on the radio on this subject..... The issue was that some of the nations that had the worst AIDS problems were also the same nations that had the best (though basic) primary public health programs, including widespread immunization programs.

Botswana was one such country, apparently they had a decent network of technicians in villages that were responsible for vaccinations, dispensing basic drugs, and referrals to physicians in larger towns. The UN was involved in funding and training technicians, thought they were not UN employees. It also provided jobs in rural communities.

Botswana had few of the usual sources of AIDS: homosexual transmission, intravenous drug use, blood transfusion. Even the most common means of infection in Africa, heterosexual transmission was less common since the society was more sexually conservative than other countries. His working theory was that the inexplicably high rate of AIDS in a relatively progressive public health system was due to the health system itself. The technicians were thought to be commonly using the same needles on many patients, while injecting vaccines or antibiotics. They had been trained not to, but money is tight and the needle stays sharp, so....
I have not heard any mention of this possibility since, and have forgotten the doctors name. What a terrible irony if true.

[Chris29]

jehovahs_waitress wrote: Quote: Who knows, though?
A lot of the countries you see pictures of the people getting vaccinated by UN workers have AIDS rates up to 95% of the population. I doubt the whole nation is having promiscuous unprotected sex.
95% of the population? Hard to see that happening.
It seems a little racist to to say that, to me.
This is anecdotal and a couple of years ago, but I recall a Canadian epidemiologist peaking on the radio on this subject..... The issue was that some of the nations that had the worst AIDS problems were also the same nations that had the best (though basic) primary public health programs, including widespread immunization programs.

Botswana was one such country, apparently they had a decent network of technicians in villages that were responsible for vaccinations, dispensing basic drugs, and referrals to physicians in larger towns. The UN was involved in funding and training technicians, thought they were not UN employees. It also provided jobs in rural communities.

Botswana had few of the usual sources of AIDS: homosexual transmission, intravenous drug use, blood transfusion. Even the most common means of infection in Africa, heterosexual transmission was less common since the society was more sexually conservative than other countries. His working theory was that the inexplicably high rate of AIDS in a relatively progressive public health system was due to the health system itself. The technicians were thought to be commonly using the same needles on many patients, while injecting vaccines or antibiotics. They had been trained not to, but money is tight and the needle stays sharp, so....
I have not heard any mention of this possibility since, and have forgotten the doctors name. What a terrible irony if true.

nice story too bad botswana has one of the worst healthcare and education systems in africa let alone the world. also intravenous drug use is not a common transfer of AIDS in the third world as they can usually not even afford food let alone illicit drugs and the needles to inject them. Not to mention that the idea that the spread of AIDS was largely a result of improper needle use in Hospitals. With roughly 4 % of those needing medicine getting it it is absolute rubbish to think that this is the main cause for the spread of AIDS. Also the very individuals going to the hospitals to get antiretroviral drugs are the ones that already have AIDS.

[jehovahs_waitress]

Chris: dude, you really really need to work on your reading comprehension skills,and on your facts as well. Most of what you say in your post is completely unrelated to mine. I did not claim that illegal drug use was the problem. The theory was that technicians giving innoculations/vaccinations were unwittingly also spreading AIDS because they used the same needle several times. Can you comprehend this? Does repetition help at all. Perhaps one-syllable words?

BOTSWANA ranks http://www.nationmaster.com/red/graph-T/hea_spe_per_per&int=-1 64th in the world in money spent in the world per capita on health, and SECOND in Africa, behind only South Africa. There are at least 24 African countries that spend less than Botswana on health care.
So. I'm sure you now agree that you are wrong abpout their health care system- relatively speaking, it is pretty good. Does it bother you at all to be wrong so often?
And I did not claim that using needles repeatedly for a good reason was the sole cause of AIDS, that would be very stupid. What was suggested by the good doctor is that it might explain why poor nations in Africa with relatively good public health sustems also tended to have high incidences of AIDS.
I wish I could remember his name.

[Chris29]

jehovahs_waitress wrote: Chris: dude, you really really need to work on your reading comprehension skills,and on your facts as well. Most of what you say in your post is completely unrelated to mine. I did not claim that illegal drug use was the problem. The theory was that technicians giving innoculations/vaccinations were unwittingly also spreading AIDS because they used the same needle several times. Can you comprehend this? Does repetition help at all. Perhaps one-syllable words?

BOTSWANA ranks http://www.nationmaster.com/red/graph-T/hea_spe_per_per&int=-1 64th in the world in money spent in the world per capita on health, and SECOND in Africa, behind only South Africa. There are at least 24 African countries that spend less than Botswana on health care.
So. I'm sure you now agree that you are wrong abpout their health care system- relatively speaking, it is pretty good. Does it bother you at all to be wrong so often?
And I did not claim that using needles repeatedly for a good reason was the sole cause of AIDS, that would be very stupid. What was suggested by the good doctor is that it might explain why poor nations in Africa with relatively good public health sustems also tended to have high incidences of AIDS.
I wish I could remember his name.


actually you did claim that intravenous drug use was part of the problem
Quote: Botswana had few of the usual sources of AIDS: homosexual transmission, intravenous drug use, blood transfusion.

as for the story about the spread of AIDS being helped by technicians using the same needles I did address that. Maybe you didn't read my post the first time so I will repeat it. The people that go to get drugs from technicians in hospitals are the ones that already have AIDS, thus it is impossible to further spread AIDS through this process.

As for botswana's health care system there are many things you are forgetting here. First off it is important to note that botswana has the second lowest life expectancy of all countries on earth. http://www.nationmaster.com/red/graph-T/hea_lif_exp_at_bir_tot_pop&int=-1 Also botswana has had a history of poor healthcare for a long time and have only started to recently receive foreign aid to be used on healthcare. Finally there is a huge difference between what is said to be spent by a country and what is actually spend, other issues such as access to healthcare facilities can have a huge impact. Funding alone does not determine wether a country has a good or poor healthcare system.