Political Crossfire Forums

Bourgeois Man · Joined: 29 Nov 2004 Posts: 24

I think that they need to accept their governments election count and accept that despite systematic voter fraud and the exit polls not matching up with the results, and expected votes percentages for the 2 flipped in some places. Because you should trust the government (except with my money) as long as the guy in charge is your choice. They wouldn't ever do such an atrocious thing as to rig the vote in the pro-Russian candidate. They learned from the good ol' United States electoral process, with all it's private companies controlling the ballot boxes, and no paper trails (because the people should trust their government). The opposition needs to just move on, they lost, and thats how it is.

Eonve · Joined: 31 Jul 2004 Posts: 754

learn to swim wrote: Well, as simple as you make it sound - it isn't.

Ukraine has quite a big stash of nuclear power left over from the old Soviet Empire. Russia controls that right now because of the guy they have (urrr - uhhh support) in charge. The new guy wants to be more Western friendly than Eastern friendly so Russia all of the sudden loses influence over the largest cache of nuclear arms it has at it's disposal.

Who needs Russia anymore? They aren't a nuclear superpower.

So this thing will either settle itself because the people demand a recount and Russia will step out from behind the scenes or it will get ugly and there could be a civil war.

Most of the cops and army have switched over to the pro-western side so that means Russi would have to interven to help the pro-eastern side if they want to retain control. Does anyone see another Germany forming here?

This is the most interesting thing happening in the world today. Way more interesting than Iraq or Afghanistan. This could send Russia back into "empire" mode. Reports have already been circulating that they tried to poison the pro western candidate. :shock:

you do not have even a slightest idea about what really is going on. there is only one thing on which i can agree with you - it is far more interesting than anything else going on in the world right now. but not exactly in the way you think it is.
by the way, Russia is still a nuclear superpower and it could very well destroy every single city in the US if it chose so. your comments are just another manifestation of the western arrogance that pervades the US nowadays.

first, Ukraine is a nuclear-free state. it does not have any nuclear weapons at its possession. it gave them all back to Russia back in 90s.

second, the military as well as the police did not declare their allegiance to either of the candidates. most of them either maintain the neutrality or have split according to the regional lines in the case of police (east vs. west).

third, it is easy to say that people demand a recount. well, a majority of them don't. those who demand are nationalists and neo-Nazis from the western Ukraine. on the other hand, people from the east and the south demand an autonomy from those idiots who protest on the streets of Kiev.

fourth, those people who protest in Kiev are not simply voicing their opinion. many of them have been paid to be there. the high organization of the protests even on the first day points out that there is some serious planning and funding behind the effort that most likely comes from the west. therefore, it is highly hypocritical for the US and EU to accuse Russia of heavy involvement when they themselves are neck deep in it.

fifth, if there be a civil war, it is those protesters and neo-Nazis as well as west that are to blame. the work of the government was virtually paralyzed. the country's tax ministry have not received any money for the last two weeks and economy is on the verge of collapse. there is no real political power in the control of the whole country right now. in the absence of the central authority all the regions are taking as much power as they can handle. no one is going to be very happy to let it go. the conflict that was started a little more than a week ago will reflect very poorly both on the country and on the regional economy and political stability. in case if do not know, the opposition in Romania has already challenged parliamentary elections won by communists (do you think that Russia was involved there also? :) )

sixth, Russia will not be a real empire once again. people do not believe in empires any more. it may rise to power once again very soon, but it will be very different. less and less people over there are willing to go through something like 70 years of communism once again.

learn to swim · Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:09 pm Post subject:

Agreed. After reading what you posted, I went in and read about Ukraine and have inlightened myself. Sorry I assumed so much was still the same but I haven't paid a whole lot of attention to what is hapopening over there until recently.

What do you think about the reports of poisining?

What do you thnik about the media coming out and saying they will not be forced to be biased anymore and will report fairly?

What do you think about many of the police and military coming out and saying they support one side or the other?

This is quite interesting and could get ugly. Ukraine does still have a very sophisticated military industrial base - but yes, as you said, they returned all nuclear weapons. I really didn't know that. :!oops:

Eonve · Joined: 31 Jul 2004 Posts: 754

learn to swim wrote: Agreed. After reading what you posted, I went in and read about Ukraine and have inlightened myself. Sorry I assumed so much was still the same but I haven't paid a whole lot of attention to what is hapopening over there until recently.

What do you think about the reports of poisining?

What do you thnik about the media coming out and saying they will not be forced to be biased anymore and will report fairly?

What do you think about many of the police and military coming out and saying they support one side or the other?

This is quite interesting and could get ugly. Ukraine does still have a very sophisticated military industrial base - but yes, as you said, they returned all nuclear weapons. I really didn't know that. :!oops:

1. the reports about poisoning are definitely false. the doctor from the clinic in Vienna who treated this alleged poisoning came out with a report saying there is no reason whatsoever to believe that he was poisoned. he later have said that after he released the report he was intimidated by the supporters of Yushenko to rewrite his report and admit poisoning, but he refused and had to turn to police for protection. keep in mind, that it is the "western oriented" and "democratic" opposition that intimidated him.

2. well, most of the nationwide media is based in Kiev, and quite frankly it is a very dangerous thing to support a government candidate over there. i talked to my friend who lives there and she told me that if you don't have anything orange (color of the opposition) to wear you better don't show up on the streets. and if you want to say something good about the government or the government's candidate you better know who you are talking to, cause otherwise your chances of being beaten up are 100%. in this atmosphere it is very difficult to remain "unbiased". what media has effectively said, as far as i know, is that they will stop talking good about Yanukovich and government and will start talking good about Yushenko and opposition. this is what written between the lines. so it is difficult to say that they will stop being biased, rather they will shift their biased from one side to another.

3. as far as i know that has so far occured only in regions. if there was a development i would appreciate if you could give me a link or something. thanks.

i may be wrong about somethings, as we all sometimes are. i just feel bad that i am not there. i am missing out on a very exciting and fun experience. also there is no way to really know from here what it's really like over there cause no one is reporting facts, but everyone is showing a bias.

Locke_ · Joined: 05 Nov 2004 Posts: 302 Location: Colombus, Ohio

Eonve wrote: learn to swim wrote: Well, as simple as you make it sound - it isn't.

Ukraine has quite a big stash of nuclear power left over from the old Soviet Empire. Russia controls that right now because of the guy they have (urrr - uhhh support) in charge. The new guy wants to be more Western friendly than Eastern friendly so Russia all of the sudden loses influence over the largest cache of nuclear arms it has at it's disposal.

Who needs Russia anymore? They aren't a nuclear superpower.

So this thing will either settle itself because the people demand a recount and Russia will step out from behind the scenes or it will get ugly and there could be a civil war.

Most of the cops and army have switched over to the pro-western side so that means Russi would have to interven to help the pro-eastern side if they want to retain control. Does anyone see another Germany forming here?

This is the most interesting thing happening in the world today. Way more interesting than Iraq or Afghanistan. This could send Russia back into "empire" mode. Reports have already been circulating that they tried to poison the pro western candidate. :shock:

by the way, Russia is still a nuclear superpower and it could very well destroy every single city in the US if it chose so. your comments are just another manifestation of the western arrogance that pervades the US nowadays.

and America couldn't destroy every single Russin city? Dont let your eastern arrogance go over your head

Eonve · Joined: 31 Jul 2004 Posts: 754

Locke_ wrote:
and America couldn't destroy every single Russin city? Dont let your eastern arrogance go over your head

you stupid. it was not my purpose to show the superiority of Russia over the US. the purpose was to point out that Russia is still a nuclear superpower and should be taken is such. it would be at best imprudent to discount a huge arsenal of nuclear weapons that it has in store and that US has no defence against except for Mutually Assured Destruction as they put it in Cold War times.

Locke_ · Joined: 05 Nov 2004 Posts: 302 Location: Colombus, Ohio

Eonve wrote: Locke_ wrote:
and America couldn't destroy every single Russin city? Dont let your eastern arrogance go over your head

you stupid. it was not my purpose to show the superiority of Russia over the US. the purpose was to point out that Russia is still a nuclear superpower and should be taken is such. it would be at best imprudent to discount a huge arsenal of nuclear weapons that it has in store and that US has no defence against except for Mutually Assured Destruction as they put it in Cold War times.

Who said they weren't? Your making an argument for no reason and what defence does Russia have besides the same one the US has? They don't so wake up Russia and the US should stick it toghether, not be eneimes or they are going to be backstabbed by little brother China.

Eonve · Joined: 31 Jul 2004 Posts: 754

Locke wrote:
Who said they weren't? Your making an argument for no reason and what defence does Russia have besides the same one the US has? They don't so wake up Russia and the US should stick it toghether, not be eneimes or they are going to be backstabbed by little brother China.

learn to swim said it earlier, but he withdrew his post. you just did not follow it from the beginning and now start accusing me of things i really did not do. all of my posts have a point and are relevant for the discussion. i do not post junk.
as to the second part, i agree. Russia and the West have too much in common and should stick together. the whole separation thing is just plain stupid. but both sides are to blame. there is a lot of anti-american and anti-western feelings in Russia. the US and EU, however, are Russophobic, which does not help the process.
both of these trends have converged in Ukraine and have produced such an ugly outcome. i hope that it all resovles in near future in some good lawful way.

Locke_ · Joined: 05 Nov 2004 Posts: 302 Location: Colombus, Ohio

Eonve wrote: Locke wrote:
Who said they weren't? Your making an argument for no reason and what defence does Russia have besides the same one the US has? They don't so wake up Russia and the US should stick it toghether, not be eneimes or they are going to be backstabbed by little brother China.

learn to swim said it earlier, but he withdrew his post. you just did not follow it from the beginning and now start accusing me of things i really did not do. all of my posts have a point and are relevant for the discussion. i do not post junk.
as to the second part, i agree. Russia and the West have too much in common and should stick together. the whole separation thing is just plain stupid. but both sides are to blame. there is a lot of anti-american and anti-western feelings in Russia. the US and EU, however, are Russophobic, which does not help the process.
both of these trends have converged in Ukraine and have produced such an ugly outcome. i hope that it all resovles in near future in some good lawful way.

Well i can't help that the post was reomoved before i could see it. Anyways the Russians and westerners need to band together.

URallIgnorant · Joined: 29 Mar 2004 Posts: 940 Location: Canada

Quote: Anyways the Russians and westerners need to band together.

No, the world needs to stick together...it's called the UN. Giving rise to the alliances of auld will do nothing but bring about catastrophe.

learn to swim · Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 1:39 am Post subject:

Locke_ wrote: Eonve wrote: Locke wrote:
Who said they weren't? Your making an argument for no reason and what defence does Russia have besides the same one the US has? They don't so wake up Russia and the US should stick it toghether, not be eneimes or they are going to be backstabbed by little brother China.

learn to swim said it earlier, but he withdrew his post. you just did not follow it from the beginning and now start accusing me of things i really did not do. all of my posts have a point and are relevant for the discussion. i do not post junk.
as to the second part, i agree. Russia and the West have too much in common and should stick together. the whole separation thing is just plain stupid. but both sides are to blame. there is a lot of anti-american and anti-western feelings in Russia. the US and EU, however, are Russophobic, which does not help the process.
both of these trends have converged in Ukraine and have produced such an ugly outcome. i hope that it all resovles in near future in some good lawful way.

Well i can't help that the post was reomoved before i could see it. Anyways the Russians and westerners need to band together.

My post is still there in the quotes in Eonve's first post. I made a mistake - it is right there. I don't know what happened to the first two posts - the original poster's message is even missing. :-|

Eonve · Joined: 31 Jul 2004 Posts: 754

URallIgnorant wrote: Quote: Anyways the Russians and westerners need to band together.

No, the world needs to stick together...it's called the UN. Giving rise to the alliances of auld will do nothing but bring about catastrophe.

as much as i would like it to stick together, the world just cannot do it at the present moment. people are too different to be united, especially by an organization with very limited powers and mandate, such as UN. sorry. that is why i think that the alignment of different nations should go along the civilizational lines so far. when there will be a greater coherence in economic development and political culture, as well as identity of people from different civilizations, then a closer political unity will also be possible. for now on, it's just not realistic to expect it.